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hey

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[Music]

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my god

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flying object

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showing ufos seamlessly traveling

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what's up everybody uh happy wednesday

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i hope your update is going

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uh pretty good you know you got to be

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realistic i'm not going to say i hope

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it's

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you know the best wednesday ever in the

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world or

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you know a terrible wednesday i just

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hope it's a fine wednesday you know we

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have to be realistic just like our

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studies in

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chief right we have to go by the facts

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factually

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wednesdays are always

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yeah

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i think that's pretty good right and

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hopefully

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uh this show and these these beautiful

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faces i'm about to bring in

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one of which is someone you're uber

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familiar with

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jay christopher king how are you sir

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i'm doing well it's great to be here on

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hump day with sean i missed you last

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week and um i hope that i can

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i just hope i hope that i can as as

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usual bring you from

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[Laughter]

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and we can do the same for our our

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wonderful audience out there

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no i missed you too man

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i know you were away i hope that time

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went all right for you i'm glad to have

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you back so with a familiar guest as

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well right absolutely yeah it's

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wonderful to have mr rindell here again

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today i've got a short bio um for him if

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if you oh do one of those i think it's

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like that's like my dream is to have you

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write a bio for me and introduce me one

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day

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okay well we'll just have to we'll have

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to reorganize the show a little bit but

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that's okay

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okay well

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take it away sir

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go out all right here let me uh wait oh

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i i almost got it here just just

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you know we could do a little drumroll

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here there we go

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okay

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graham rindahl is a full-time author and

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commentator on the unidentified aerial

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phenomenon issue he's also a contributor

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to the debrief and a frequent guest on

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various podcasts like this one looking

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at the uap issue

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he writes articles on the subject for

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uap media uk as well

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he's written a critically acclaimed work

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looking at the foo fighters witness

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during world war ii and the numerous

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wartime cases that occurred before the

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term was coined in november 1944. he's

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been an aviation and world war ii

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history enthusiast from an early age

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when he was given airfix model aircraft

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kits to keep him quiet married to joe he

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lives in rural

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northumberland between the beach and the

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hills today he'll be joining us to talk

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about his new book announced and

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released earlier today

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called flying saucer fever aerial ufo

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encounters 1950 1950-1952

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mr rindel it's great to have you on the

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show

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hi guys

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so are we going to go from

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no this is amazing i uh i i was so happy

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to wake up with this news today earlier

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that uh that you just you know surprise

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released a 799 page book uh on unleashed

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it onto the world it's amazing i think

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when the paperback comes out it's going

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to be

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466 pages so they'll see the kindle

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slightly larger but yes it's um it's

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slightly smaller than the the foo

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fighters book but it's still yeah still

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fairly weighty you can use a door stop

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when you're finished reading it

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it's good because yeah i did definitely

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need a new one the the last one you gave

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no like yeah of course

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i was just talking about you the other

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day on this show

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uh well i talked about it in regards to

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uh that research show i did where you

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know i gave people quick tips on how to

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look up cases and stuff and i was

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talking about how you know it's i think

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it's important if people want to learn

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about this topic you know if they if

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they have the time of course

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to look at these cases for themselves

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you know like and and what do you take

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from it what what is your take from

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these different cases and that you know

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be subjected to somebody's spin or

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someone's

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uh you know

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their you know prerogative or or what

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their intent may be in in writing it or

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whatever whether it's you know to get

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you to

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think it's aliens or to think it's

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all balloons you know one way or another

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and

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um but then i did say you know not

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everybody has time for that and so if

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you're gonna read a book if you're going

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to read authors you have to make sure

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that they write their stuff that way and

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i mentioned you as graeme rendell as one

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of those people that you can trust when

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when you read their books and i

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mentioned you know the foo fighters book

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and

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find that stuff in the archives you know

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like that was that was a you know so to

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speak boots on the ground or research

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which was phenomenal so

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um you know when you know i heard you

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were doing this book and you came out

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with it today like um just super excited

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because there's so many cases um that

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you you know you and i have looked at in

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there that just deserve

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you know i don't know if deserves the

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right word but should should be out

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there should be accessible to people

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because

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you know not everybody has the patience

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uh to look through the the crummy

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lettering or to find

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the case that they should find to know

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more about this stuff so you know thanks

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for doing that and i just want to

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uh congratulate you on that and and you

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know your second ufo book

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um so

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you know with that being said how long

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did it take you to put it together

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you know i can't remember um i really

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can't remember this time it's because i

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have written another one since then uh

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which is still which is still to come

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out yet and it's uh somebody else is

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doing a forward for it the basically

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that they ran on from each other because

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the this one is

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to 49 that i finished um

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and the idea is that i was going to do a

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few just you know to cover that

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part of history where there was a lot of

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sightings of this type of nature and it

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was the kind of dawn of the flying

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sources if you like and you know

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obviously the foo fighters came

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beforehand but people do still associate

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you know the the start of the modern day

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phenomenon as being june 47. um so i had

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the idea of writing like either a book

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or just a couple of books which would

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cover the period from about the midfield

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the end of the second world war till

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about the end of the 50s um with just

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the just the the pilot and the aircrew

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sightings because that's what i've got

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an interest in in terms of aviation but

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also of ufos so it was a nice thing just

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to go and search through the archives

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and pull out all of these types of cases

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um

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because to me they're really interesting

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but you know you you yourself have

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looked at old cases not just these type

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of cases but people standing on the

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ground watching

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strange things that just can't identify

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and can't understand and yes

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blue book got a a rap it got a real bad

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reputation

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in terms of trashing witnesses trashing

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cases um coming up with all sorts of

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weird and wonderful

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explanations for things you're like

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swamp gas but actually when you look at

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the information especially in the early

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days and you look at project signing

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liquor project grudges that the report

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the reports that they came out with

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which are in the archives that you

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mentioned before

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the information itself is great you know

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it's got a hell of a lot of detail in it

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and you just have to wade through it

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it's the actual interpretations that

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were put on it afterwards about you know

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from the experts saying oh well this is

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what that means this is what they really

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saw you know it wasn't what he described

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when he was flying and he was seeing

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this thing um it was this instead it was

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venus it was mars it was it was a

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balloon you know it's a similar sort of

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thing that you hear nowadays when people

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are trying to basically tell commander

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david fravor what he saw that day

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or all the other the pilots who saw you

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know the the the gimbal um objects oh

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you just saw commercial aircraft flying

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in the in the opposite direction or

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another f-18 or or or

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eagle or something you know then this is

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the kind of this kind of thing has never

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changed it it happened back then as well

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albeit not through the the guys of

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social media um so

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you know it's one you know what goes

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around comes around it it just seems to

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be we're just reinventing the same wheel

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all the time if you like yeah no

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actually that brings up a good point

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i'll ask you this before i give it to

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jay that brings up a good point uh you

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know with the advent of social media it

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seems like back then at least you know

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and doing the research that

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there is a lot more

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you know i guess we won't know for until

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you know

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more time passes but it seems like there

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was so many more

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uh cases and so many more uh like

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whether it be newspaper articles written

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about individual cases like what do you

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think

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this may be a hard question but what do

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you think the difference would be if you

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know those same types of occurrences uh

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what happened now

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uh with the adventist social media do

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you think we'd still be in this position

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rather along farther behind what do you

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think

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i i do i don't know the answer to that

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question i mean back then some of the

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the more kind of

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famous cases i feel like they've got a

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hell of a lot of coverage but that was

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the way the things worked in the media

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back then so you'd get a story that

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would be written and it would go on the

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wire service so it would be one story

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that would have a lot maybe a lot of

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detail in but then other papers would

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take up you know take hold of it and

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they would put their own spin on it as

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well so you'd see the same essential

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details but they'll be spun maybe a

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hundred different ways a hundred

279
00:10:57,030 --> 00:10:55,920
different newspapers

280
00:10:58,550 --> 00:10:57,040
and that was the same for the foo

281
00:11:00,069 --> 00:10:58,560
fighters you know back then as well they

282
00:11:01,990 --> 00:11:00,079
were doing pretty much the same then for

283
00:11:04,630 --> 00:11:02,000
certain stories but it became much more

284
00:11:05,430 --> 00:11:04,640
prevalent in the late 40s and early 50s

285
00:11:06,630 --> 00:11:05,440
when

286
00:11:09,509 --> 00:11:06,640
the likes of

287
00:11:11,110 --> 00:11:09,519
up and ap got a hold of these these

288
00:11:12,949 --> 00:11:11,120
stories from from a particular

289
00:11:14,949 --> 00:11:12,959
journalist and just went right okay

290
00:11:16,550 --> 00:11:14,959
there you go it's right across america's

291
00:11:19,910 --> 00:11:16,560
i mean i think they're called syndicated

292
00:11:22,470 --> 00:11:19,920
don't they um and then little papers in

293
00:11:24,710 --> 00:11:22,480
little towns all over america would

294
00:11:27,030 --> 00:11:24,720
find the story and they would they would

295
00:11:29,030 --> 00:11:27,040
either just publish it verbatim or they

296
00:11:31,110 --> 00:11:29,040
would have somebody rewrite bits of it

297
00:11:32,470 --> 00:11:31,120
just to add little bits of color in it

298
00:11:34,790 --> 00:11:32,480
especially if there's somebody local

299
00:11:36,230 --> 00:11:34,800
involved in it um or just just alter it

300
00:11:37,990 --> 00:11:36,240
slightly just so it was more palatable

301
00:11:39,990 --> 00:11:38,000
to their own readers putting some spin

302
00:11:42,310 --> 00:11:40,000
on it somewhere about what they thought

303
00:11:43,910 --> 00:11:42,320
about it and then so you got these

304
00:11:46,230 --> 00:11:43,920
different stories but essentially the

305
00:11:48,310 --> 00:11:46,240
same details so that was your social

306
00:11:51,030 --> 00:11:48,320
media back then it was just lots of

307
00:11:52,550 --> 00:11:51,040
little provincial newspapers especially

308
00:11:55,190 --> 00:11:52,560
effectively taking telling the same

309
00:11:57,110 --> 00:11:55,200
story from the same core details because

310
00:11:59,110 --> 00:11:57,120
there wasn't anything else to go on uh

311
00:12:01,829 --> 00:11:59,120
they were only going on what the united

312
00:12:03,190 --> 00:12:01,839
states air force spokesman was saying or

313
00:12:04,710 --> 00:12:03,200
if they managed to get to interview the

314
00:12:06,949 --> 00:12:04,720
pilots what they said or their witnesses

315
00:12:09,590 --> 00:12:06,959
on the ground etc now you can you can

316
00:12:11,990 --> 00:12:09,600
see that today as well because i suppose

317
00:12:13,990 --> 00:12:12,000
that's the same because in terms of the

318
00:12:16,470 --> 00:12:14,000
us navy sightings we're only going on a

319
00:12:19,190 --> 00:12:16,480
very limited amount of information um

320
00:12:20,550 --> 00:12:19,200
and people are effectively regurgitating

321
00:12:22,550 --> 00:12:20,560
those details

322
00:12:24,550 --> 00:12:22,560
and then sort of elaborating a little

323
00:12:25,990 --> 00:12:24,560
bit and exaggerating them to a certain

324
00:12:28,870 --> 00:12:26,000
degree or

325
00:12:30,550 --> 00:12:28,880
or just spinning them to a suit whatever

326
00:12:33,350 --> 00:12:30,560
your agenda whichever direction they're

327
00:12:34,230 --> 00:12:33,360
coming from so we've got the same

328
00:12:37,590 --> 00:12:34,240
thing

329
00:12:39,590 --> 00:12:37,600
just in a digital age i guess um you

330
00:12:41,269 --> 00:12:39,600
know it's slightly different but it

331
00:12:42,870 --> 00:12:41,279
boils down to about the same thing

332
00:12:44,710 --> 00:12:42,880
they're telling the same story with

333
00:12:46,870 --> 00:12:44,720
limited information lots of different

334
00:12:49,670 --> 00:12:46,880
ways

335
00:12:52,629 --> 00:12:49,680
yeah i and i deeply appreciate that you

336
00:12:56,710 --> 00:12:52,639
know you you're so careful to be

337
00:12:58,949 --> 00:12:56,720
unbiased in in in your research and in

338
00:13:00,870 --> 00:12:58,959
fact uh in your estimate of the

339
00:13:03,110 --> 00:13:00,880
situation chapter towards the end of the

340
00:13:04,949 --> 00:13:03,120
book you say i've been careful not to

341
00:13:06,550 --> 00:13:04,959
include too much of my own bias within

342
00:13:08,550 --> 00:13:06,560
this book since i do not believe it is

343
00:13:11,430 --> 00:13:08,560
helpful my thoughts are simply opinions

344
00:13:13,829 --> 00:13:11,440
no better and no worse than anyone

345
00:13:16,790 --> 00:13:13,839
else's i really appreciate

346
00:13:18,230 --> 00:13:16,800
you putting that in and and remaining in

347
00:13:19,670 --> 00:13:18,240
that kind of

348
00:13:21,269 --> 00:13:19,680
neutral state as much as humanly

349
00:13:23,990 --> 00:13:21,279
possible i think that's a really

350
00:13:26,870 --> 00:13:24,000
admirable thing given how much spin

351
00:13:29,670 --> 00:13:26,880
happens both from local newspapers to

352
00:13:31,990 --> 00:13:29,680
you know celebrity ufo just authors

353
00:13:34,230 --> 00:13:32,000
right um

354
00:13:35,750 --> 00:13:34,240
document hunting now document hunting

355
00:13:37,430 --> 00:13:35,760
and diving into the research has given a

356
00:13:39,269 --> 00:13:37,440
lot of emphasis on the show what

357
00:13:41,430 --> 00:13:39,279
references did you most look at in

358
00:13:43,509 --> 00:13:41,440
writing flying saucer fever

359
00:13:45,829 --> 00:13:43,519
so it's basically the ones that came

360
00:13:47,750 --> 00:13:45,839
from the likes of project sign project

361
00:13:50,230 --> 00:13:47,760
grudge project blue book now bear in

362
00:13:52,550 --> 00:13:50,240
mind the first two had um well the first

363
00:13:53,829 --> 00:13:52,560
two had already been a thing since the

364
00:13:56,710 --> 00:13:53,839
start of the you know before the start

365
00:13:58,870 --> 00:13:56,720
of the books in terms of timeline the um

366
00:14:02,069 --> 00:13:58,880
sign had already sort of been defuncted

367
00:14:05,110 --> 00:14:02,079
at the end of 1948 officially in 1949

368
00:14:07,350 --> 00:14:05,120
but more or less 1948 and then grudge

369
00:14:10,230 --> 00:14:07,360
had taken over but grudge had also been

370
00:14:12,310 --> 00:14:10,240
cancelled towards the end of 1949 but it

371
00:14:13,990 --> 00:14:12,320
actually kept going in a kind of

372
00:14:16,230 --> 00:14:14,000
it was almost like it was death warmed

373
00:14:20,069 --> 00:14:16,240
up uh until blue book took over in in

374
00:14:22,389 --> 00:14:20,079
march 1942 and effectively for the first

375
00:14:24,790 --> 00:14:22,399
two years of this book that i've written

376
00:14:26,470 --> 00:14:24,800
in terms of the time scale grudge was

377
00:14:28,389 --> 00:14:26,480
just like a couple of people filing away

378
00:14:30,629 --> 00:14:28,399
reports and that was all it was and they

379
00:14:33,030 --> 00:14:30,639
weren't doing anything so with with the

380
00:14:35,110 --> 00:14:33,040
information they said they were because

381
00:14:36,150 --> 00:14:35,120
it was called project saucer in terms of

382
00:14:38,389 --> 00:14:36,160
a public

383
00:14:40,550 --> 00:14:38,399
um you know faced exercise but that

384
00:14:42,230 --> 00:14:40,560
covered project sign as well

385
00:14:44,069 --> 00:14:42,240
this was like a kind of public term for

386
00:14:45,990 --> 00:14:44,079
both of those programs and of course

387
00:14:47,350 --> 00:14:46,000
they were you know the us air force was

388
00:14:48,870 --> 00:14:47,360
saying oh yes well we are looking at

389
00:14:50,629 --> 00:14:48,880
them we're taking them seriously kind of

390
00:14:52,230 --> 00:14:50,639
thing but actually in the background

391
00:14:54,069 --> 00:14:52,240
once sign went out the way grudge was

392
00:14:55,829 --> 00:14:54,079
just a case of yeah yeah we don't we

393
00:14:58,150 --> 00:14:55,839
don't really agree with all this this is

394
00:15:00,069 --> 00:14:58,160
just a kind of like a make work exercise

395
00:15:02,230 --> 00:15:00,079
if you like um

396
00:15:03,509 --> 00:15:02,240
until they realize that they had to do

397
00:15:05,829 --> 00:15:03,519
something about it eventually because

398
00:15:08,069 --> 00:15:05,839
the the reports just didn't didn't stop

399
00:15:10,310 --> 00:15:08,079
coming so that's where the the reports

400
00:15:12,790 --> 00:15:10,320
come from and blue book actually did

401
00:15:15,269 --> 00:15:12,800
retrospective looks uh you know looking

402
00:15:17,670 --> 00:15:15,279
into older cases so you'll see a lot of

403
00:15:19,910 --> 00:15:17,680
blue book evaluations on things that

404
00:15:22,870 --> 00:15:19,920
happened long before they actually uh

405
00:15:24,949 --> 00:15:22,880
came into being so those are the other

406
00:15:27,750 --> 00:15:24,959
core kind of documents from you know

407
00:15:29,590 --> 00:15:27,760
what i've i've used to get um the

408
00:15:31,189 --> 00:15:29,600
information for this book because

409
00:15:33,110 --> 00:15:31,199
they're actually a treasure trove as i

410
00:15:35,509 --> 00:15:33,120
said before that the information

411
00:15:36,790 --> 00:15:35,519
is solid in terms of these these are

412
00:15:39,509 --> 00:15:36,800
coming from pilots these are coming from

413
00:15:41,670 --> 00:15:39,519
air other air crew who are seeing things

414
00:15:43,430 --> 00:15:41,680
they don't understand and it's just the

415
00:15:44,790 --> 00:15:43,440
same kind of thing as the the foo

416
00:15:46,949 --> 00:15:44,800
fighters references that i got from the

417
00:15:49,189 --> 00:15:46,959
squadron records from world war ii you

418
00:15:50,710 --> 00:15:49,199
know it's these are pilots who or or

419
00:15:52,470 --> 00:15:50,720
aircrew who are talking so they're quite

420
00:15:54,629 --> 00:15:52,480
professional the well-trained good

421
00:15:57,189 --> 00:15:54,639
observers you know pretty much you know

422
00:15:59,110 --> 00:15:57,199
beyond reproach in terms of a witness

423
00:16:00,629 --> 00:15:59,120
um and they're coming up with all these

424
00:16:04,150 --> 00:16:00,639
stories about things that you know

425
00:16:05,990 --> 00:16:04,160
justify explanation and yet

426
00:16:07,670 --> 00:16:06,000
people are saying well okay well we

427
00:16:08,870 --> 00:16:07,680
think you're seeing something else you

428
00:16:10,389 --> 00:16:08,880
know we're seeing you're seeing a

429
00:16:12,870 --> 00:16:10,399
weather balloon you're seeing mars and

430
00:16:14,790 --> 00:16:12,880
all this kind of stuff but that is those

431
00:16:16,790 --> 00:16:14,800
are the documents so the information in

432
00:16:19,269 --> 00:16:16,800
them is perfect in terms of their

433
00:16:22,710 --> 00:16:19,279
historian because they are the bona

434
00:16:25,030 --> 00:16:22,720
fider you know sort of records of what

435
00:16:27,350 --> 00:16:25,040
the witnesses said happened and then

436
00:16:29,269 --> 00:16:27,360
you've also got the analysis when you

437
00:16:31,990 --> 00:16:29,279
can find it because it's not always that

438
00:16:34,069 --> 00:16:32,000
clear in terms of how much information

439
00:16:35,910 --> 00:16:34,079
um is included about the thought

440
00:16:38,790 --> 00:16:35,920
processes behind coming to the

441
00:16:41,030 --> 00:16:38,800
conclusions of blueberwell atik uh their

442
00:16:42,790 --> 00:16:41,040
technology and intelligence center that

443
00:16:44,470 --> 00:16:42,800
they were the experts that came up with

444
00:16:46,069 --> 00:16:44,480
the information and then blue book that

445
00:16:49,829 --> 00:16:46,079
basically did the evaluation based on

446
00:16:51,590 --> 00:16:49,839
that um though that information isn't as

447
00:16:53,670 --> 00:16:51,600
prevalent through the reports that was

448
00:16:55,269 --> 00:16:53,680
probably held somewhere else uh the

449
00:16:57,509 --> 00:16:55,279
workings out if you like although it's

450
00:16:59,430 --> 00:16:57,519
it's there in in very very you know sort

451
00:17:01,350 --> 00:16:59,440
of small detail

452
00:17:04,390 --> 00:17:01,360
but all that's really helpful to tell

453
00:17:05,909 --> 00:17:04,400
these stories um you don't need any bias

454
00:17:08,470 --> 00:17:05,919
really to actually tell the story

455
00:17:10,309 --> 00:17:08,480
because there's the information um i'll

456
00:17:12,789 --> 00:17:10,319
put a little bit i've got a little bit

457
00:17:14,549 --> 00:17:12,799
of sort of writing around these just to

458
00:17:16,230 --> 00:17:14,559
set the scenes if you like and to

459
00:17:18,069 --> 00:17:16,240
explain what types of aircraft these

460
00:17:19,669 --> 00:17:18,079
were that they were being involved in

461
00:17:21,189 --> 00:17:19,679
the situations and and some of the back

462
00:17:22,949 --> 00:17:21,199
stories for the pilots and what happened

463
00:17:25,750 --> 00:17:22,959
to them afterwards uh just to give a bit

464
00:17:27,750 --> 00:17:25,760
of color and a bit of context um and

465
00:17:30,150 --> 00:17:27,760
also maybe to explain what was happening

466
00:17:31,669 --> 00:17:30,160
but in terms of bias i don't need to

467
00:17:33,669 --> 00:17:31,679
really go into it i have got a little

468
00:17:35,190 --> 00:17:33,679
bit because i am biased i'm interested

469
00:17:36,950 --> 00:17:35,200
in neufolgi i'm i think there's

470
00:17:38,470 --> 00:17:36,960
something to it so i'm not going to just

471
00:17:39,750 --> 00:17:38,480
dismiss everything as being you know

472
00:17:41,590 --> 00:17:39,760
mars and weather balloons and all that

473
00:17:43,830 --> 00:17:41,600
kind of stuff and some of the things are

474
00:17:45,190 --> 00:17:43,840
so preposterous that i have to say that

475
00:17:47,430 --> 00:17:45,200
can't be right you know what they said

476
00:17:49,029 --> 00:17:47,440
was wish you know and i'm sure you know

477
00:17:50,950 --> 00:17:49,039
other people when they read it will set

478
00:17:52,630 --> 00:17:50,960
will say the same but we're all

479
00:17:55,750 --> 00:17:52,640
different we all come at this from

480
00:17:57,510 --> 00:17:55,760
different angles so um you know we all

481
00:17:59,350 --> 00:17:57,520
have different um sort of

482
00:18:01,190 --> 00:17:59,360
theories and and sort of opinions on

483
00:18:02,870 --> 00:18:01,200
what things are but the documents

484
00:18:03,990 --> 00:18:02,880
themselves you know which is what your

485
00:18:07,110 --> 00:18:04,000
question was

486
00:18:09,430 --> 00:18:07,120
those are all fixed they are simply the

487
00:18:11,590 --> 00:18:09,440
the root and the cause and the core of

488
00:18:14,230 --> 00:18:11,600
um you know all what's happening but

489
00:18:15,669 --> 00:18:14,240
they're all from the blue book uh

490
00:18:18,070 --> 00:18:15,679
archives

491
00:18:19,750 --> 00:18:18,080
and they're really really good

492
00:18:21,909 --> 00:18:19,760
yeah yeah if you want to say something

493
00:18:23,909 --> 00:18:21,919
about blue book positively they're

494
00:18:25,510 --> 00:18:23,919
really good um

495
00:18:27,350 --> 00:18:25,520
after a while i think things change

496
00:18:29,190 --> 00:18:27,360
because i have a sneak peek at

497
00:18:31,270 --> 00:18:29,200
subsequent years you know from about the

498
00:18:33,110 --> 00:18:31,280
mid 50s onwards and in the 60s and the

499
00:18:35,350 --> 00:18:33,120
reporting seems to go downhill but

500
00:18:36,870 --> 00:18:35,360
that's because maybe they hived off some

501
00:18:38,950 --> 00:18:36,880
of the better cases whereas this is

502
00:18:41,029 --> 00:18:38,960
quite early in the game and i think a

503
00:18:43,430 --> 00:18:41,039
lot of the stuff was still there

504
00:18:46,710 --> 00:18:43,440
you know so yeah

505
00:18:48,549 --> 00:18:46,720
i mean yeah i i agree with you like the

506
00:18:51,029 --> 00:18:48,559
the level of uh

507
00:18:52,789 --> 00:18:51,039
you know that they didn't

508
00:18:55,590 --> 00:18:52,799
at least seemingly that when they were

509
00:18:57,350 --> 00:18:55,600
taking down the testimony of whoever saw

510
00:18:59,430 --> 00:18:57,360
you know the object and whatever they

511
00:19:01,830 --> 00:18:59,440
said that they took it down word for

512
00:19:03,990 --> 00:19:01,840
word is as much as you can tell with the

513
00:19:05,750 --> 00:19:04,000
colors the maneuvers and and all that

514
00:19:08,950 --> 00:19:05,760
and you know it's pretty interesting too

515
00:19:10,789 --> 00:19:08,960
because i forget what year it is but um

516
00:19:12,710 --> 00:19:10,799
you know they did actually have like

517
00:19:15,350 --> 00:19:12,720
basically schedules of all weather

518
00:19:16,710 --> 00:19:15,360
balloon releases and and and whatnot too

519
00:19:19,110 --> 00:19:16,720
that they could see

520
00:19:20,950 --> 00:19:19,120
and and still you know they would log

521
00:19:22,710 --> 00:19:20,960
things up to probably balloon or

522
00:19:24,470 --> 00:19:22,720
possibly balloon or

523
00:19:26,150 --> 00:19:24,480
you know or whatever you even know i

524
00:19:27,909 --> 00:19:26,160
mean i mentioned the workings out before

525
00:19:29,350 --> 00:19:27,919
you know about how how a lot of it's not

526
00:19:31,190 --> 00:19:29,360
included but actually those kind of

527
00:19:32,710 --> 00:19:31,200
inquiries are so you mentioned about

528
00:19:34,630 --> 00:19:32,720
your schedules for weather balloons

529
00:19:36,710 --> 00:19:34,640
you'll see the the like the likes of

530
00:19:39,430 --> 00:19:36,720
rupell to captain rupell from blue book

531
00:19:42,390 --> 00:19:39,440
he'll actually contact the the local

532
00:19:44,230 --> 00:19:42,400
weather station um or a weather bureau

533
00:19:46,549 --> 00:19:44,240
um associated with a local local

534
00:19:47,830 --> 00:19:46,559
airfield or air base and saying when did

535
00:19:49,510 --> 00:19:47,840
you launch these balloons we'll come

536
00:19:51,990 --> 00:19:49,520
back and you see the the letters all the

537
00:19:54,070 --> 00:19:52,000
time types that come back were the times

538
00:19:55,750 --> 00:19:54,080
of the launches and even the winds at

539
00:19:57,430 --> 00:19:55,760
different heights so you can even work

540
00:19:59,029 --> 00:19:57,440
out yourself which direction the balloon

541
00:20:01,110 --> 00:19:59,039
would have gone in at a certain time a

542
00:20:02,710 --> 00:20:01,120
certain time of day and a certain height

543
00:20:04,950 --> 00:20:02,720
and then you can match it up you can do

544
00:20:07,669 --> 00:20:04,960
the workings out that they did almost in

545
00:20:08,870 --> 00:20:07,679
your head um and and then determine

546
00:20:10,390 --> 00:20:08,880
where that balloon should have been

547
00:20:11,750 --> 00:20:10,400
should have been where that pilot saw it

548
00:20:13,669 --> 00:20:11,760
no and therefore it's not balloon then

549
00:20:14,710 --> 00:20:13,679
it's something else you know i'm not

550
00:20:15,669 --> 00:20:14,720
going to go into that kind of detail in

551
00:20:18,230 --> 00:20:15,679
the booth because that would get

552
00:20:19,510 --> 00:20:18,240
absolutely boring very quickly

553
00:20:20,870 --> 00:20:19,520
if people want to go and look at the

554
00:20:22,470 --> 00:20:20,880
information from themselves because i've

555
00:20:24,390 --> 00:20:22,480
got it all listed where it comes from

556
00:20:26,310 --> 00:20:24,400
you know you'll see you'll see all that

557
00:20:28,470 --> 00:20:26,320
and if you've got a mind to then you can

558
00:20:30,149 --> 00:20:28,480
just you know start drawing things on a

559
00:20:31,270 --> 00:20:30,159
bit of paper and working oh yeah the

560
00:20:33,110 --> 00:20:31,280
balloon should have been there sort of

561
00:20:34,070 --> 00:20:33,120
thing and no okay but the aircraft's

562
00:20:35,830 --> 00:20:34,080
there and he's looking at something in

563
00:20:37,590 --> 00:20:35,840
that direction you know

564
00:20:39,990 --> 00:20:37,600
it's it's great stuff

565
00:20:41,270 --> 00:20:40,000
well i'm not sure how much time we have

566
00:20:42,470 --> 00:20:41,280
um so

567
00:20:45,430 --> 00:20:42,480
you know there's a couple things that

568
00:20:47,750 --> 00:20:45,440
definitely want to get in here um first

569
00:20:50,310 --> 00:20:47,760
of all i see a couple questions about uh

570
00:20:52,950 --> 00:20:50,320
foo fighters from graham uh for graham

571
00:20:54,710 --> 00:20:52,960
you we've done that video before so you

572
00:20:56,390 --> 00:20:54,720
can go back

573
00:20:59,190 --> 00:20:56,400
into my thick archives and check that

574
00:21:01,750 --> 00:20:59,200
out and he's given his opinion on that

575
00:21:03,590 --> 00:21:01,760
and which is great obviously but

576
00:21:05,909 --> 00:21:03,600
but that's why we do multiple videos

577
00:21:07,750 --> 00:21:05,919
right but i did want to get to

578
00:21:11,029 --> 00:21:07,760
um your artwork your artwork is

579
00:21:13,270 --> 00:21:11,039
beautiful um the cover on on

580
00:21:15,909 --> 00:21:13,280
on this book is is just as beautiful as

581
00:21:18,149 --> 00:21:15,919
the one on the the you know ufos poor

582
00:21:20,390 --> 00:21:18,159
roswell book and i love that you have a

583
00:21:22,710 --> 00:21:20,400
theme developed here in artwork theme

584
00:21:25,350 --> 00:21:22,720
you know but because it's by the the

585
00:21:27,510 --> 00:21:25,360
same artist um and i think that is

586
00:21:30,070 --> 00:21:27,520
really cool you know as a musician doing

587
00:21:32,470 --> 00:21:30,080
artwork i really you know have a huge

588
00:21:34,549 --> 00:21:32,480
appreciation for that and it it always

589
00:21:36,630 --> 00:21:34,559
speaks volumes to the work inside and i

590
00:21:38,630 --> 00:21:36,640
think it's you know um

591
00:21:40,390 --> 00:21:38,640
always underrated when it when it

592
00:21:42,390 --> 00:21:40,400
shouldn't be i think that the cover is

593
00:21:44,630 --> 00:21:42,400
always a big deal so i wanted to bring

594
00:21:47,590 --> 00:21:44,640
up the cyrez version

595
00:21:49,510 --> 00:21:47,600
and and you know show it here

596
00:21:51,510 --> 00:21:49,520
and if there's anything you want to say

597
00:21:54,630 --> 00:21:51,520
about this particular scene or or

598
00:21:56,789 --> 00:21:54,640
anything so would i i don't just like um

599
00:21:57,990 --> 00:21:56,799
you know ask dan and olaf to come up

600
00:21:59,110 --> 00:21:58,000
with something just off the top of the

601
00:22:01,590 --> 00:21:59,120
heads or

602
00:22:03,590 --> 00:22:01,600
something off top of my head um so you

603
00:22:05,270 --> 00:22:03,600
know they said to me when they agreed to

604
00:22:07,430 --> 00:22:05,280
do the cover it was you know what would

605
00:22:08,870 --> 00:22:07,440
you like to have on so um come up with a

606
00:22:10,630 --> 00:22:08,880
case like i did with the foo fighters

607
00:22:13,590 --> 00:22:10,640
book and this happened on the first of

608
00:22:16,789 --> 00:22:13,600
may 1952 over dallas month and um air

609
00:22:18,549 --> 00:22:16,799
base in arizona suicide site tucson

610
00:22:20,710 --> 00:22:18,559
um and yes if you look at the tail of

611
00:22:22,149 --> 00:22:20,720
the aircraft you'll see a number on it

612
00:22:24,230 --> 00:22:22,159
and you'll also see the buzz number on

613
00:22:25,350 --> 00:22:24,240
the forward fuselage so it's a real

614
00:22:26,630 --> 00:22:25,360
aircraft

615
00:22:29,070 --> 00:22:26,640
um you know

616
00:22:32,789 --> 00:22:29,080
that is uh 44

617
00:22:34,630 --> 00:22:32,799
92015 it is actually a b-36

618
00:22:36,549 --> 00:22:34,640
you know peacemaker bomber

619
00:22:40,230 --> 00:22:36,559
belonged to the 11th

620
00:22:41,750 --> 00:22:40,240
bombardment squadron uh or barbara wings

621
00:22:43,909 --> 00:22:41,760
sorry it um

622
00:22:45,750 --> 00:22:43,919
so yeah it's the real aircraft that's a

623
00:22:47,350 --> 00:22:45,760
real colour scheme from that particular

624
00:22:49,270 --> 00:22:47,360
aircraft and if you notice that the

625
00:22:50,310 --> 00:22:49,280
propellers on a b-36 actually face

626
00:22:52,549 --> 00:22:50,320
backwards

627
00:22:53,590 --> 00:22:52,559
um yeah yeah uh

628
00:22:55,270 --> 00:22:53,600
that was a particular type of the

629
00:22:57,750 --> 00:22:55,280
conveyor bomber and it doesn't have the

630
00:22:59,830 --> 00:22:57,760
podded engines like the the later d and

631
00:23:02,230 --> 00:22:59,840
h variants did so it's actually a

632
00:23:04,630 --> 00:23:02,240
particular type of early mark of this

633
00:23:06,230 --> 00:23:04,640
particular aircraft anyway one day this

634
00:23:07,990 --> 00:23:06,240
aircraft was flying over the base and

635
00:23:08,380 --> 00:23:08,000
there was an intelligence officer called

636
00:23:10,549 --> 00:23:08,390
um

637
00:23:12,549 --> 00:23:10,559
[Music]

638
00:23:14,549 --> 00:23:12,559
who was actually on the the stairs of

639
00:23:16,149 --> 00:23:14,559
the or the steps of the base hospital on

640
00:23:17,909 --> 00:23:16,159
the base and he was looking up at this

641
00:23:19,590 --> 00:23:17,919
bomber going over with another airman

642
00:23:21,350 --> 00:23:19,600
standing next to him and then watched

643
00:23:23,590 --> 00:23:21,360
these two objects come close to the

644
00:23:26,950 --> 00:23:23,600
bomber and one of them as you can see

645
00:23:30,230 --> 00:23:26,960
here positions itself between the tail

646
00:23:32,870 --> 00:23:30,240
plane and the propellers of the bomber

647
00:23:35,029 --> 00:23:32,880
and it sat there for a bit

648
00:23:37,430 --> 00:23:35,039
and that is amazing you know this is a

649
00:23:38,870 --> 00:23:37,440
kind of like really close proximity you

650
00:23:40,230 --> 00:23:38,880
know this disc

651
00:23:41,029 --> 00:23:40,240
that sat there

652
00:23:44,149 --> 00:23:41,039
and

653
00:23:46,230 --> 00:23:44,159
the files in the archives only have his

654
00:23:48,830 --> 00:23:46,240
side of it and yet he was the person who

655
00:23:51,590 --> 00:23:48,840
took the testimony from the

656
00:23:53,029 --> 00:23:51,600
crew well so

657
00:23:55,510 --> 00:23:53,039
which is interesting

658
00:23:56,630 --> 00:23:55,520
and yeah that's not in the archives

659
00:23:58,149 --> 00:23:56,640
so

660
00:24:00,710 --> 00:23:58,159
where does that go where does that come

661
00:24:02,070 --> 00:24:00,720
into things so there's something missing

662
00:24:03,909 --> 00:24:02,080
there and that's intrigue that's an

663
00:24:04,870 --> 00:24:03,919
intriguing story of its own so if you

664
00:24:05,909 --> 00:24:04,880
want to hear the rest you know if you

665
00:24:07,269 --> 00:24:05,919
want to like read on the rest of the

666
00:24:09,430 --> 00:24:07,279
deals i hear the rest of deals you have

667
00:24:11,510 --> 00:24:09,440
to read the book for that but that's the

668
00:24:13,430 --> 00:24:11,520
essentially the call the story behind

669
00:24:14,549 --> 00:24:13,440
the cover um

670
00:24:17,430 --> 00:24:14,559
and of course

671
00:24:19,269 --> 00:24:17,440
you know um dan and olaf have come up

672
00:24:21,669 --> 00:24:19,279
with this amazing cover and but it's

673
00:24:23,190 --> 00:24:21,679
accurate as well it's not just you know

674
00:24:24,870 --> 00:24:23,200
kind of blue sky thinking instead oh

675
00:24:26,470 --> 00:24:24,880
yeah he's a we'll get the bomber we'll

676
00:24:27,990 --> 00:24:26,480
get the artwork and we'll get the discs

677
00:24:30,230 --> 00:24:28,000
but that's actually you know the the

678
00:24:32,310 --> 00:24:30,240
landscape around dm you know so in

679
00:24:34,390 --> 00:24:32,320
arizona and you've got the the time of

680
00:24:36,230 --> 00:24:34,400
day is correct as well so you've got the

681
00:24:37,909 --> 00:24:36,240
all that and the positions of the discs

682
00:24:40,070 --> 00:24:37,919
because there were two involved

683
00:24:42,149 --> 00:24:40,080
that's correct as well there's two

684
00:24:44,390 --> 00:24:42,159
you'll see two stars in the background

685
00:24:47,430 --> 00:24:44,400
which were the stars which would be

686
00:24:48,390 --> 00:24:47,440
visible at the time one is vega you know

687
00:24:50,310 --> 00:24:48,400
so

688
00:24:52,230 --> 00:24:50,320
and then you've got a hint of like the

689
00:24:53,909 --> 00:24:52,240
the the crew looking out the observation

690
00:24:55,990 --> 00:24:53,919
blisters of the airplane because there

691
00:24:57,350 --> 00:24:56,000
were quite a lot of blisters on the

692
00:24:59,430 --> 00:24:57,360
airplane that you could look out like

693
00:25:01,510 --> 00:24:59,440
kind of a like a half bubble window and

694
00:25:03,350 --> 00:25:01,520
you can see those on on there and of

695
00:25:05,750 --> 00:25:03,360
course the crew had been looking at

696
00:25:07,510 --> 00:25:05,760
these things going what the is that you

697
00:25:09,590 --> 00:25:07,520
know what kind of things yeah

698
00:25:12,149 --> 00:25:09,600
wow yeah so

699
00:25:13,350 --> 00:25:12,159
it's not just a pretty picture you know

700
00:25:15,830 --> 00:25:13,360
the two of them

701
00:25:17,190 --> 00:25:15,840
go they well first of all you know if

702
00:25:19,190 --> 00:25:17,200
they got a brief from me in terms of

703
00:25:21,029 --> 00:25:19,200
here's the details of the case

704
00:25:22,470 --> 00:25:21,039
and then i just got like 100 questions

705
00:25:24,230 --> 00:25:22,480
for them you know blah blah what what's

706
00:25:26,149 --> 00:25:24,240
this what's that what's that and and so

707
00:25:28,149 --> 00:25:26,159
answered all this information and then

708
00:25:30,390 --> 00:25:28,159
they wanted a representative aircraft so

709
00:25:32,390 --> 00:25:30,400
they could get a kill scheme in markings

710
00:25:34,310 --> 00:25:32,400
now unfortunately the records don't

711
00:25:35,510 --> 00:25:34,320
state the actual aircraft that was

712
00:25:38,149 --> 00:25:35,520
involved

713
00:25:40,549 --> 00:25:38,159
uh the actual the you know the the the

714
00:25:42,070 --> 00:25:40,559
physical airplane downward serial number

715
00:25:43,510 --> 00:25:42,080
so i basically had to make an educated

716
00:25:45,750 --> 00:25:43,520
guess but that is one of the aircraft

717
00:25:48,230 --> 00:25:45,760
which would likely be involved so it's

718
00:25:49,909 --> 00:25:48,240
not as exact as the wellington bomber on

719
00:25:51,909 --> 00:25:49,919
the front of the foo fighters picture

720
00:25:53,430 --> 00:25:51,919
which i actually have the markings and

721
00:25:55,830 --> 00:25:53,440
the tail number four

722
00:25:57,350 --> 00:25:55,840
but you know everything else is spot on

723
00:25:58,789 --> 00:25:57,360
um but it could well have been that

724
00:26:00,710 --> 00:25:58,799
aircraft so

725
00:26:02,390 --> 00:26:00,720
you know it's uh it's it's quite

726
00:26:04,070 --> 00:26:02,400
interesting but it's just an interesting

727
00:26:05,750 --> 00:26:04,080
case and again this is what this is one

728
00:26:07,590 --> 00:26:05,760
of these ones where people probably

729
00:26:09,269 --> 00:26:07,600
aren't aware of it you know i get i

730
00:26:12,070 --> 00:26:09,279
doubt there might be you know two or

731
00:26:13,669 --> 00:26:12,080
three people maybe even if that who in

732
00:26:15,510 --> 00:26:13,679
your audience who have never heard of

733
00:26:18,070 --> 00:26:15,520
that case before today

734
00:26:22,870 --> 00:26:20,310
and i was only dimly aware of it anyway

735
00:26:25,510 --> 00:26:22,880
i i was aware that it was a case of the

736
00:26:27,269 --> 00:26:25,520
disc with an aircraft in close proximity

737
00:26:29,269 --> 00:26:27,279
but i wasn't entirely sure that most of

738
00:26:30,870 --> 00:26:29,279
the details and then this came along oh

739
00:26:32,310 --> 00:26:30,880
yeah but i've never seen this written in

740
00:26:34,470 --> 00:26:32,320
a book anyway

741
00:26:35,990 --> 00:26:34,480
now it's kind of like christmas isn't it

742
00:26:37,909 --> 00:26:36,000
like when you when you find that new

743
00:26:40,310 --> 00:26:37,919
case that's really good that happened to

744
00:26:42,310 --> 00:26:40,320
me yesterday where the triangle episode

745
00:26:43,590 --> 00:26:42,320
because i found that amazing

746
00:26:44,789 --> 00:26:43,600
case

747
00:26:46,630 --> 00:26:44,799
um

748
00:26:48,870 --> 00:26:46,640
you know it wasn't a military pilot it

749
00:26:50,230 --> 00:26:48,880
was a commercial private guy

750
00:26:52,549 --> 00:26:50,240
flew a clipper

751
00:26:54,549 --> 00:26:52,559
uh or whatever but he had uh 20 years of

752
00:26:56,950 --> 00:26:54,559
flying experience and described this

753
00:27:00,549 --> 00:26:56,960
triangle in almost like perfect

754
00:27:01,830 --> 00:27:00,559
detail and there were like uh you know

755
00:27:03,830 --> 00:27:01,840
sets of three of them that would come

756
00:27:05,990 --> 00:27:03,840
around and he said it felt like they he

757
00:27:07,830 --> 00:27:06,000
felt like they were using his plane as a

758
00:27:09,830 --> 00:27:07,840
a point of turn and all that kind of

759
00:27:11,750 --> 00:27:09,840
stuff is so interesting when you find

760
00:27:13,669 --> 00:27:11,760
that it's like wow it's like it feels

761
00:27:14,789 --> 00:27:13,679
like everything pays off finally you

762
00:27:16,390 --> 00:27:14,799
know

763
00:27:17,830 --> 00:27:16,400
seeing some of the stuff in the archives

764
00:27:19,590 --> 00:27:17,840
i mean when you go through these old

765
00:27:21,350 --> 00:27:19,600
files and these old blue book files and

766
00:27:23,510 --> 00:27:21,360
and just the the kind of

767
00:27:25,990 --> 00:27:23,520
how much information is in the testimony

768
00:27:28,870 --> 00:27:26,000
um the detail you know it's not just

769
00:27:31,029 --> 00:27:28,880
what they saw uh it's you know how they

770
00:27:32,230 --> 00:27:31,039
saw these and actually even down to

771
00:27:33,430 --> 00:27:32,240
things like the serial number there

772
00:27:34,950 --> 00:27:33,440
playing the unit was involved and all

773
00:27:36,470 --> 00:27:34,960
this kind of stuff and you can build up

774
00:27:38,070 --> 00:27:36,480
a much bigger picture and you just get

775
00:27:39,430 --> 00:27:38,080
so much detail that you might get an

776
00:27:41,510 --> 00:27:39,440
idea of what they actually were these

777
00:27:43,750 --> 00:27:41,520
things but you have all the rest of it

778
00:27:44,950 --> 00:27:43,760
which a lot of the time is missing um

779
00:27:47,110 --> 00:27:44,960
you know you mentioned before about you

780
00:27:48,630 --> 00:27:47,120
know documents which i you mentioned

781
00:27:50,149 --> 00:27:48,640
about documents

782
00:27:52,470 --> 00:27:50,159
i remember the books i used to read in

783
00:27:53,990 --> 00:27:52,480
the late 70s and early 80s and and how

784
00:27:55,830 --> 00:27:54,000
much information you used to get it used

785
00:27:57,909 --> 00:27:55,840
to get a bit bit like this book you get

786
00:28:00,070 --> 00:27:57,919
case after case after case but

787
00:28:01,430 --> 00:28:00,080
unfortunately those to me didn't have

788
00:28:02,950 --> 00:28:01,440
much attribution they didn't have much

789
00:28:04,789 --> 00:28:02,960
context in terms of where this

790
00:28:06,549 --> 00:28:04,799
information came from it was just laid

791
00:28:08,230 --> 00:28:06,559
on the page for you but you you weren't

792
00:28:09,590 --> 00:28:08,240
sure where they'd actually got the a lot

793
00:28:10,950 --> 00:28:09,600
of the time they got the details from

794
00:28:12,310 --> 00:28:10,960
they had some footnotes but they were

795
00:28:14,149 --> 00:28:12,320
fair you know they were fairly few and

796
00:28:15,590 --> 00:28:14,159
far between and also they have these

797
00:28:17,350 --> 00:28:15,600
kind of leaps and logic where i was like

798
00:28:18,310 --> 00:28:17,360
you know i use this kind of expression

799
00:28:20,230 --> 00:28:18,320
you say oh there's lights in the sky

800
00:28:21,830 --> 00:28:20,240
that must be from zeta reticuli i mean

801
00:28:23,269 --> 00:28:21,840
that's quite exaggerated from me from my

802
00:28:25,510 --> 00:28:23,279
point of view but it was that kind of

803
00:28:27,590 --> 00:28:25,520
thing there were these leaps of logic

804
00:28:28,630 --> 00:28:27,600
and even at my early age when i was

805
00:28:30,389 --> 00:28:28,640
reading these books i was saying i'm

806
00:28:32,149 --> 00:28:30,399
thinking you can't go there from here

807
00:28:33,590 --> 00:28:32,159
you know you can't make that jump

808
00:28:35,190 --> 00:28:33,600
there's just not that information

809
00:28:37,190 --> 00:28:35,200
there's not enough detail there and we

810
00:28:38,549 --> 00:28:37,200
still can't do that to a certain extent

811
00:28:39,909 --> 00:28:38,559
so when i wrote it you know when i

812
00:28:41,590 --> 00:28:39,919
thought about

813
00:28:43,110 --> 00:28:41,600
writing my first book i was never going

814
00:28:44,630 --> 00:28:43,120
to do that i was always going to have

815
00:28:46,389 --> 00:28:44,640
enough information to say look this is

816
00:28:47,990 --> 00:28:46,399
where you get it from and i followed

817
00:28:49,909 --> 00:28:48,000
that through with this as well because

818
00:28:51,830 --> 00:28:49,919
it's unfair to an audience to just lay

819
00:28:53,190 --> 00:28:51,840
information out and then not tell people

820
00:28:55,190 --> 00:28:53,200
where they get it where you get it from

821
00:28:57,830 --> 00:28:55,200
you know and especially nowadays where

822
00:28:59,990 --> 00:28:57,840
social media is full of kind of people

823
00:29:01,909 --> 00:29:00,000
just trying it on with this on the other

824
00:29:03,990 --> 00:29:01,919
um you know facebook you can't trip over

825
00:29:06,710 --> 00:29:04,000
a ufo group on facebook without some

826
00:29:08,149 --> 00:29:06,720
fake picture or fake video on there um

827
00:29:09,750 --> 00:29:08,159
see it's got to be it's very very you've

828
00:29:11,909 --> 00:29:09,760
got to be very careful that you actually

829
00:29:13,029 --> 00:29:11,919
do present stuff if you're presenting it

830
00:29:14,710 --> 00:29:13,039
as fact

831
00:29:16,389 --> 00:29:14,720
that i am that you're going to be able

832
00:29:17,669 --> 00:29:16,399
to back it up from where it comes from

833
00:29:19,909 --> 00:29:17,679
otherwise you might as well just not

834
00:29:23,190 --> 00:29:19,919
bother

835
00:29:25,590 --> 00:29:23,200
absolutely absolutely and i

836
00:29:27,909 --> 00:29:25,600
i love that you highlighted one of those

837
00:29:30,549 --> 00:29:27,919
most overlooked cases as the cover of

838
00:29:33,990 --> 00:29:30,559
the book and in such detail uh with the

839
00:29:35,750 --> 00:29:34,000
help of ooloff and and dan that is just

840
00:29:37,669 --> 00:29:35,760
it's so masterful being able to

841
00:29:40,470 --> 00:29:37,679
collaborate in such a way and then so

842
00:29:42,549 --> 00:29:40,480
indicative of how

843
00:29:45,269 --> 00:29:42,559
precise you are with your research you

844
00:29:48,549 --> 00:29:45,279
know having come to this field from

845
00:29:51,350 --> 00:29:48,559
um writing about military encounters and

846
00:29:54,149 --> 00:29:51,360
military aviation in particular

847
00:29:56,389 --> 00:29:54,159
you know i've always been impressed and

848
00:29:58,789 --> 00:29:56,399
kind of astonished with how easily

849
00:30:01,190 --> 00:29:58,799
you're able to rattle off the

850
00:30:03,669 --> 00:30:01,200
really precise details about who was

851
00:30:05,909 --> 00:30:03,679
involved what you know what aircraft was

852
00:30:08,389 --> 00:30:05,919
it what group of people were there like

853
00:30:10,470 --> 00:30:08,399
what you know what was the kind what was

854
00:30:11,269 --> 00:30:10,480
all of the context down to those kind of

855
00:30:16,470 --> 00:30:11,279
tr

856
00:30:18,149 --> 00:30:16,480
people but actually help paint a a

857
00:30:19,110 --> 00:30:18,159
beautiful picture like on the cover of

858
00:30:20,549 --> 00:30:19,120
your book

859
00:30:22,389 --> 00:30:20,559
one of the other things that i really

860
00:30:24,230 --> 00:30:22,399
like is that you know you say in the

861
00:30:26,070 --> 00:30:24,240
introduction this is not necessarily a

862
00:30:28,789 --> 00:30:26,080
book aimed at those already familiar

863
00:30:31,110 --> 00:30:28,799
with ufo history many will recognize

864
00:30:33,029 --> 00:30:31,120
some of the cases included here however

865
00:30:35,350 --> 00:30:33,039
i would be surprised if anyone is

866
00:30:37,430 --> 00:30:35,360
familiar with them all as as you've just

867
00:30:39,669 --> 00:30:37,440
established and so i think it's really

868
00:30:41,510 --> 00:30:39,679
important you know to kind of comment

869
00:30:43,750 --> 00:30:41,520
before i go to my question sorry to be

870
00:30:46,710 --> 00:30:43,760
long-winded about that you know this is

871
00:30:49,350 --> 00:30:46,720
not this is what i really like in in in

872
00:30:51,750 --> 00:30:49,360
looking at this is that i'm used to you

873
00:30:52,950 --> 00:30:51,760
know richard's work richard dolan's work

874
00:30:55,110 --> 00:30:52,960
i'm used to

875
00:30:56,789 --> 00:30:55,120
uh timothy good's work you know bruce

876
00:30:58,549 --> 00:30:56,799
mcabee there have been a number of

877
00:31:02,230 --> 00:30:58,559
authors that have covered this

878
00:31:04,470 --> 00:31:02,240
particular area of time in larger books

879
00:31:07,350 --> 00:31:04,480
in different ways but

880
00:31:08,630 --> 00:31:07,360
this is a book that is positioned very

881
00:31:10,950 --> 00:31:08,640
precisely

882
00:31:13,430 --> 00:31:10,960
um for people that have been

883
00:31:17,350 --> 00:31:13,440
in the field for a while and is also

884
00:31:19,509 --> 00:31:17,360
very approachable to people that have

885
00:31:21,830 --> 00:31:19,519
this might be one of their first five or

886
00:31:23,990 --> 00:31:21,840
ten ufology books is there anything

887
00:31:26,470 --> 00:31:24,000
you'd like to say about that

888
00:31:29,190 --> 00:31:26,480
i write books for multiple audiences i

889
00:31:31,830 --> 00:31:29,200
always have done so the i've written

890
00:31:34,389 --> 00:31:31,840
some books about um aviation history in

891
00:31:36,310 --> 00:31:34,399
northumberland um military history

892
00:31:38,549 --> 00:31:36,320
looking at like a local eardrum that

893
00:31:40,149 --> 00:31:38,559
nobody had ever written a history of but

894
00:31:42,630 --> 00:31:40,159
it was written not just for people who

895
00:31:44,630 --> 00:31:42,640
were interested in kind of world war ii

896
00:31:46,310 --> 00:31:44,640
uh it was interested for local residents

897
00:31:47,590 --> 00:31:46,320
who may have not known all the details

898
00:31:49,269 --> 00:31:47,600
about what happened on their doorstep

899
00:31:51,430 --> 00:31:49,279
during world war ii so that was like

900
00:31:53,509 --> 00:31:51,440
another audience when i wrote the book

901
00:31:56,389 --> 00:31:53,519
on site on my trip around siberia back

902
00:31:58,470 --> 00:31:56,399
in 1992 it was yes it was a book written

903
00:32:01,110 --> 00:31:58,480
about for people who weren't wrestling

904
00:32:02,789 --> 00:32:01,120
airplanes and also interested by russian

905
00:32:04,789 --> 00:32:02,799
airplanes because bear in mind a lot

906
00:32:06,470 --> 00:32:04,799
happened before the cold war but also it

907
00:32:08,470 --> 00:32:06,480
was a travelogue effectively so it was a

908
00:32:10,070 --> 00:32:08,480
trip around somewhere where no you know

909
00:32:11,750 --> 00:32:10,080
nobody in the west really had traveled

910
00:32:13,110 --> 00:32:11,760
around and there was all the detail

911
00:32:14,389 --> 00:32:13,120
about you know the areas that i was

912
00:32:16,950 --> 00:32:14,399
traveling so

913
00:32:19,110 --> 00:32:16,960
that was like aimed at another audience

914
00:32:21,110 --> 00:32:19,120
now the foo fighters book i came at it

915
00:32:21,909 --> 00:32:21,120
with the same sort of you know ethos

916
00:32:24,549 --> 00:32:21,919
that

917
00:32:26,070 --> 00:32:24,559
i wanted to write about for ufologists

918
00:32:28,549 --> 00:32:26,080
but also from military history

919
00:32:29,990 --> 00:32:28,559
enthusiasts as well and if somebody in i

920
00:32:32,549 --> 00:32:30,000
didn't say this but somebody else did

921
00:32:34,470 --> 00:32:32,559
when they reviewed my book or on twitter

922
00:32:35,669 --> 00:32:34,480
like a short you know a review they said

923
00:32:37,909 --> 00:32:35,679
this is the best history book you've

924
00:32:39,750 --> 00:32:37,919
never read and i thought that was a

925
00:32:42,149 --> 00:32:39,760
i thought that was an amazing comment i

926
00:32:43,750 --> 00:32:42,159
mean i don't think i deserve it but i

927
00:32:46,310 --> 00:32:43,760
can see where we're coming from in terms

928
00:32:48,630 --> 00:32:46,320
of you know this is a slice of

929
00:32:50,149 --> 00:32:48,640
world war ii history that just doesn't

930
00:32:51,830 --> 00:32:50,159
you know appear in the in the history

931
00:32:54,070 --> 00:32:51,840
books if you like so there's another

932
00:32:57,590 --> 00:32:54,080
audience entirely and this one's the

933
00:32:59,190 --> 00:32:57,600
same um yes okay um i've said you know

934
00:33:00,630 --> 00:32:59,200
it's more aimed at people outside but

935
00:33:02,470 --> 00:33:00,640
actually that's maybe not strictly

936
00:33:04,389 --> 00:33:02,480
correct it is aimed also with people

937
00:33:06,549 --> 00:33:04,399
from within the community because as i

938
00:33:08,549 --> 00:33:06,559
say not everybody knows

939
00:33:10,310 --> 00:33:08,559
all the you know all these cases i

940
00:33:12,870 --> 00:33:10,320
certainly didn't either you know i i

941
00:33:14,470 --> 00:33:12,880
knew only a fraction of them um

942
00:33:16,630 --> 00:33:14,480
you'll know about the nash fortenbury

943
00:33:19,590 --> 00:33:16,640
case because that's quite famous uh the

944
00:33:21,269 --> 00:33:19,600
ayla the airliner crew who saw a line of

945
00:33:24,070 --> 00:33:21,279
object like a v formation of objects

946
00:33:26,789 --> 00:33:24,080
over chesapeake bay um so

947
00:33:28,310 --> 00:33:26,799
in 52 but the stories like that where

948
00:33:29,590 --> 00:33:28,320
people are aware of them they might not

949
00:33:30,789 --> 00:33:29,600
be aware of all the details but they're

950
00:33:33,590 --> 00:33:30,799
certainly aware of them on a certain

951
00:33:35,590 --> 00:33:33,600
level um and similarly when when people

952
00:33:37,669 --> 00:33:35,600
get to read the 46-49 book that i've

953
00:33:39,750 --> 00:33:37,679
read you'll people will know about the

954
00:33:42,470 --> 00:33:39,760
the mantel case they'll know about um

955
00:33:44,149 --> 00:33:42,480
the gorman case they'll know about um

956
00:33:46,630 --> 00:33:44,159
you know uh

957
00:33:48,310 --> 00:33:46,640
kenneth arnold's cur obviously case but

958
00:33:50,310 --> 00:33:48,320
the things around them that won't

959
00:33:53,509 --> 00:33:50,320
probably have heard of so it just builds

960
00:33:55,350 --> 00:33:53,519
a picture up so yeah different audiences

961
00:33:56,389 --> 00:33:55,360
i like to write you know something it's

962
00:33:58,549 --> 00:33:56,399
not just

963
00:34:00,149 --> 00:33:58,559
aimed at a very very small niche of

964
00:34:02,389 --> 00:34:00,159
people because actually that's a way of

965
00:34:05,029 --> 00:34:02,399
limiting your readership you know

966
00:34:07,669 --> 00:34:05,039
too many books do like kind of write for

967
00:34:09,750 --> 00:34:07,679
people who you know and they tend to

968
00:34:11,030 --> 00:34:09,760
write without bearing in mind that much

969
00:34:13,190 --> 00:34:11,040
you might be other people want to read

970
00:34:15,829 --> 00:34:13,200
it and it just becomes inaccessible so

971
00:34:18,230 --> 00:34:15,839
hopefully i try to try to trans you know

972
00:34:20,069 --> 00:34:18,240
transcend just the kind of small core

973
00:34:22,069 --> 00:34:20,079
people who i know might get something

974
00:34:23,669 --> 00:34:22,079
from the book um i like to think about

975
00:34:25,190 --> 00:34:23,679
you know i might come as a as you know

976
00:34:26,069 --> 00:34:25,200
it might be me reading the book but i've

977
00:34:28,230 --> 00:34:26,079
got no

978
00:34:30,470 --> 00:34:28,240
knowledge of ufos or no knowledge of

979
00:34:32,710 --> 00:34:30,480
military aircraft you know how would i

980
00:34:34,149 --> 00:34:32,720
read it what would i get from it so it

981
00:34:36,069 --> 00:34:34,159
can't be just a list of facts and

982
00:34:37,990 --> 00:34:36,079
figures about airplanes it has to have

983
00:34:41,190 --> 00:34:38,000
some kind of description in about what

984
00:34:43,430 --> 00:34:41,200
they were or in this one some pictures

985
00:34:45,030 --> 00:34:43,440
yeah as well so

986
00:34:47,109 --> 00:34:45,040
you know and i think what what you do

987
00:34:48,629 --> 00:34:47,119
graham is a is a great like what we're

988
00:34:50,310 --> 00:34:48,639
hearing now is to take this topic

989
00:34:52,629 --> 00:34:50,320
seriously right we have to take a

990
00:34:54,069 --> 00:34:52,639
scientific approach and and and look at

991
00:34:56,069 --> 00:34:54,079
the data and all that kind of stuff and

992
00:34:58,790 --> 00:34:56,079
when i when i look at your work and what

993
00:35:01,270 --> 00:34:58,800
i try to emulate my work is

994
00:35:03,670 --> 00:35:01,280
you know i'm not his scientists and i

995
00:35:06,310 --> 00:35:03,680
can't read data and and do that but what

996
00:35:08,550 --> 00:35:06,320
i can do is take that same mindset to

997
00:35:12,150 --> 00:35:08,560
the research and how meticulous i look

998
00:35:14,390 --> 00:35:12,160
at files and you know my you know as

999
00:35:17,030 --> 00:35:14,400
hard as it is sometimes try to not be

1000
00:35:18,870 --> 00:35:17,040
biased with the end result you know or

1001
00:35:21,030 --> 00:35:18,880
what the things are and i think with

1002
00:35:23,670 --> 00:35:21,040
your book you do such an excellent job

1003
00:35:26,230 --> 00:35:23,680
of taking the topic to a next level as

1004
00:35:28,310 --> 00:35:26,240
far as fine detail in the cases you know

1005
00:35:30,069 --> 00:35:28,320
like the nash case you even brought up

1006
00:35:31,910 --> 00:35:30,079
it seemed like the newspaper even at the

1007
00:35:34,710 --> 00:35:31,920
time did a little bit of embellishment

1008
00:35:36,550 --> 00:35:34,720
on it you know and and that and that was

1009
00:35:38,950 --> 00:35:36,560
that was clear that happened but when

1010
00:35:41,190 --> 00:35:38,960
you write your stories you give

1011
00:35:43,430 --> 00:35:41,200
the nuts and bolts so to speak

1012
00:35:45,270 --> 00:35:43,440
of the story like this is what the guy

1013
00:35:46,710 --> 00:35:45,280
said this is

1014
00:35:49,910 --> 00:35:46,720
you know what happened these were the

1015
00:35:51,510 --> 00:35:49,920
scheduled balloons you know so whatever

1016
00:35:54,310 --> 00:35:51,520
but i i think you really take the

1017
00:35:56,069 --> 00:35:54,320
integrity of of writing about ufos to

1018
00:35:57,829 --> 00:35:56,079
the next level and

1019
00:35:59,990 --> 00:35:57,839
you know i think that that's really

1020
00:36:02,870 --> 00:36:00,000
needed in this community and i really

1021
00:36:05,349 --> 00:36:02,880
appreciate you for doing that so but

1022
00:36:06,790 --> 00:36:05,359
with that being said i do have

1023
00:36:09,349 --> 00:36:06,800
you know there's there's a guy in this

1024
00:36:12,630 --> 00:36:09,359
chat robert who puts in a lot of effort

1025
00:36:14,550 --> 00:36:12,640
in in studying uh ufos a lot a lot of

1026
00:36:15,349 --> 00:36:14,560
effort and

1027
00:36:17,030 --> 00:36:15,359
um

1028
00:36:19,109 --> 00:36:17,040
he brought up a question that i kind of

1029
00:36:20,870 --> 00:36:19,119
had a question about and i'm curious

1030
00:36:23,109 --> 00:36:20,880
what you think about this like

1031
00:36:25,109 --> 00:36:23,119
um at the beginning um

1032
00:36:28,150 --> 00:36:25,119
it almost seemed like

1033
00:36:30,870 --> 00:36:28,160
um that you know the fbi was in involved

1034
00:36:32,630 --> 00:36:30,880
in the 47 and all that and and

1035
00:36:34,150 --> 00:36:32,640
you know the air force officially and

1036
00:36:36,630 --> 00:36:34,160
all their documents say that you know

1037
00:36:38,950 --> 00:36:36,640
they started in 48 but we know they they

1038
00:36:41,589 --> 00:36:38,960
were looking at it earlier um

1039
00:36:43,510 --> 00:36:41,599
and the army was involved too

1040
00:36:46,230 --> 00:36:43,520
and the cia what you know was there a

1041
00:36:48,950 --> 00:36:46,240
split from the army what's your take on

1042
00:36:51,109 --> 00:36:48,960
what the army wound up doing with ufo

1043
00:36:53,190 --> 00:36:51,119
investigations did they do they

1044
00:36:54,630 --> 00:36:53,200
continued to do stuff did they really

1045
00:36:56,630 --> 00:36:54,640
just disappear

1046
00:36:58,390 --> 00:36:56,640
you know what's your take on the whole

1047
00:37:00,310 --> 00:36:58,400
seemingly split but between the

1048
00:37:01,910 --> 00:37:00,320
different uh divisions you know so you

1049
00:37:05,030 --> 00:37:01,920
talk about the us army as opposed to the

1050
00:37:07,510 --> 00:37:05,040
us army air force right yeah and then

1051
00:37:10,390 --> 00:37:07,520
there is seemingly a cia air force kind

1052
00:37:12,870 --> 00:37:10,400
of split a little bit well yeah

1053
00:37:15,750 --> 00:37:12,880
it's hard to tell i think from my point

1054
00:37:17,349 --> 00:37:15,760
of view as to where split started and

1055
00:37:18,950 --> 00:37:17,359
and how

1056
00:37:20,310 --> 00:37:18,960
most of the cases i may have looked

1057
00:37:21,990 --> 00:37:20,320
after the book i certainly do with the

1058
00:37:23,109 --> 00:37:22,000
air force there's very little army

1059
00:37:25,510 --> 00:37:23,119
involvement

1060
00:37:26,870 --> 00:37:25,520
because those cases would have been with

1061
00:37:28,630 --> 00:37:26,880
soldiers on the ground and i wasn't

1062
00:37:31,109 --> 00:37:28,640
looking at that kind of thing i have i

1063
00:37:33,349 --> 00:37:31,119
did actually see some um but it was

1064
00:37:35,510 --> 00:37:33,359
still the likes of the local air base uh

1065
00:37:39,030 --> 00:37:35,520
or the local uh office you know office

1066
00:37:41,910 --> 00:37:39,040
um osi detachments or districts rather

1067
00:37:43,829 --> 00:37:41,920
who were looking at the cases for blue

1068
00:37:45,430 --> 00:37:43,839
book uh or you know they were the people

1069
00:37:47,589 --> 00:37:45,440
who went on the ground and

1070
00:37:49,030 --> 00:37:47,599
interrogated these personnel there was a

1071
00:37:51,750 --> 00:37:49,040
there was a case in an army base out in

1072
00:37:53,430 --> 00:37:51,760
california where there was um the some

1073
00:37:55,030 --> 00:37:53,440
of the guards had seen something strange

1074
00:37:56,230 --> 00:37:55,040
like i remember i don't have all the

1075
00:37:57,589 --> 00:37:56,240
deals on top of my head because i wasn't

1076
00:38:00,150 --> 00:37:57,599
actually looking at it too closely

1077
00:38:01,910 --> 00:38:00,160
because it didn't involve airplanes um

1078
00:38:03,109 --> 00:38:01,920
but i remember that you know that they

1079
00:38:05,670 --> 00:38:03,119
did they were

1080
00:38:08,069 --> 00:38:05,680
interrogated by the same kind of people

1081
00:38:10,069 --> 00:38:08,079
who would have investigated if it had

1082
00:38:12,310 --> 00:38:10,079
been an airplane you know flying over

1083
00:38:13,430 --> 00:38:12,320
the place so

1084
00:38:15,670 --> 00:38:13,440
the kind of

1085
00:38:17,750 --> 00:38:15,680
the same people were involved in terms

1086
00:38:19,670 --> 00:38:17,760
of you know interrogating these people

1087
00:38:21,270 --> 00:38:19,680
so i think if there had been a u.s army

1088
00:38:23,030 --> 00:38:21,280
aviation case so it had been a

1089
00:38:25,190 --> 00:38:23,040
helicopter or it had been some kind of

1090
00:38:27,109 --> 00:38:25,200
like liaison airplane then it would have

1091
00:38:29,430 --> 00:38:27,119
still been the people who investigated

1092
00:38:30,710 --> 00:38:29,440
air force cases would have been involved

1093
00:38:32,069 --> 00:38:30,720
so i think those

1094
00:38:35,510 --> 00:38:32,079
elements were probably essentially the

1095
00:38:37,270 --> 00:38:35,520
same um but in terms of splits go well

1096
00:38:39,030 --> 00:38:37,280
probably because

1097
00:38:39,750 --> 00:38:39,040
the u.s government's factionalized isn't

1098
00:38:42,390 --> 00:38:39,760
it

1099
00:38:43,430 --> 00:38:42,400
all all these three-letter agencies and

1100
00:38:45,670 --> 00:38:43,440
some of the ones that probably don't

1101
00:38:47,030 --> 00:38:45,680
have like public names you know they're

1102
00:38:48,470 --> 00:38:47,040
all got their little fife domes haven't

1103
00:38:49,990 --> 00:38:48,480
they so you know they're all gonna want

1104
00:38:52,790 --> 00:38:50,000
that little kind of bit that they keep

1105
00:38:55,349 --> 00:38:52,800
control of and you know the cia were

1106
00:38:56,630 --> 00:38:55,359
obviously investigating things outside

1107
00:38:57,589 --> 00:38:56,640
outside the u.s because that's their

1108
00:39:00,230 --> 00:38:57,599
remit

1109
00:39:01,430 --> 00:39:00,240
um and they were keeping tabs on what

1110
00:39:04,069 --> 00:39:01,440
was happening in other countries they

1111
00:39:05,910 --> 00:39:04,079
were looking at foreign newspapers so

1112
00:39:08,069 --> 00:39:05,920
there are cases which come out of

1113
00:39:09,589 --> 00:39:08,079
foreign newspapers um but it's only

1114
00:39:11,109 --> 00:39:09,599
because the cia were doing you know the

1115
00:39:12,550 --> 00:39:11,119
translation or getting the translations

1116
00:39:14,069 --> 00:39:12,560
done that they were coming up with

1117
00:39:15,670 --> 00:39:14,079
information saying oh yeah this has this

1118
00:39:17,510 --> 00:39:15,680
been seen or you know some aircraft has

1119
00:39:19,670 --> 00:39:17,520
been chased by something or what have

1120
00:39:22,150 --> 00:39:19,680
you there's actually a case in the book

1121
00:39:26,630 --> 00:39:22,160
uh from africa uh and it covers a

1122
00:39:29,510 --> 00:39:26,640
uranium mine in um yeah and in a belgian

1123
00:39:31,829 --> 00:39:29,520
protectorate as was not now but as was

1124
00:39:34,230 --> 00:39:31,839
um in in central africa

1125
00:39:37,109 --> 00:39:34,240
and um there was a

1126
00:39:39,109 --> 00:39:37,119
a belgian air force pilot was sent up to

1127
00:39:40,710 --> 00:39:39,119
to to investigate an object which was

1128
00:39:41,750 --> 00:39:40,720
seen lightering over the easy remain

1129
00:39:42,790 --> 00:39:41,760
really

1130
00:39:46,390 --> 00:39:42,800
kind

1131
00:39:48,310 --> 00:39:46,400
uranium mines so yes things like that

1132
00:39:49,990 --> 00:39:48,320
attracted the attention the cia because

1133
00:39:52,390 --> 00:39:50,000
the only thing to do with you know

1134
00:39:53,750 --> 00:39:52,400
possibly atomic weapons or in nuclear

1135
00:39:55,190 --> 00:39:53,760
weapons was obviously something that

1136
00:39:57,430 --> 00:39:55,200
we're going to look at and go yeah we

1137
00:39:58,790 --> 00:39:57,440
need to be involved in this

1138
00:40:01,190 --> 00:39:58,800
translate the documents from a local

1139
00:40:03,270 --> 00:40:01,200
newspaper and then that gets fed through

1140
00:40:04,550 --> 00:40:03,280
to the various agencies and of course it

1141
00:40:06,309 --> 00:40:04,560
goes through the blue book as well so

1142
00:40:08,309 --> 00:40:06,319
it's in their files

1143
00:40:09,990 --> 00:40:08,319
so you'll see things like that as well

1144
00:40:11,750 --> 00:40:10,000
so yeah there was some cooperation as

1145
00:40:13,109 --> 00:40:11,760
well so it wasn't just a case of you

1146
00:40:14,390 --> 00:40:13,119
know that's my information i'm going to

1147
00:40:17,109 --> 00:40:14,400
keep a hold of it

1148
00:40:18,069 --> 00:40:17,119
because he's still having his army

1149
00:40:19,349 --> 00:40:18,079
sorry

1150
00:40:25,670 --> 00:40:19,359
you'd still have the army come out and

1151
00:40:29,270 --> 00:40:27,589
yeah

1152
00:40:31,430 --> 00:40:29,280
now one one thing that i really

1153
00:40:32,950 --> 00:40:31,440
appreciate as well about this book i'm

1154
00:40:35,270 --> 00:40:32,960
sorry i'm just layering on the praise

1155
00:40:37,510 --> 00:40:35,280
here uh but it's oh

1156
00:40:39,910 --> 00:40:37,520
you're so psyched about it yeah

1157
00:40:41,910 --> 00:40:39,920
another thing with regard to bringing up

1158
00:40:44,950 --> 00:40:41,920
you know other people that have covered

1159
00:40:46,390 --> 00:40:44,960
these years because again like 1950 to

1160
00:40:48,069 --> 00:40:46,400
1952

1161
00:40:49,750 --> 00:40:48,079
for those that are are just kind of

1162
00:40:51,589 --> 00:40:49,760
joining the conversation in the last

1163
00:40:53,109 --> 00:40:51,599
couple years these are absolutely

1164
00:40:56,150 --> 00:40:53,119
critical years

1165
00:40:58,550 --> 00:40:56,160
um in in the in the in the field in

1166
00:41:01,510 --> 00:40:58,560
terms of kind of the

1167
00:41:04,630 --> 00:41:01,520
there's the dog fight cases of 51

1168
00:41:07,190 --> 00:41:04,640
fireballs and 51 there's there's ufos

1169
00:41:09,670 --> 00:41:07,200
over washington over over two weekends

1170
00:41:12,069 --> 00:41:09,680
in july 1952 these are some of the these

1171
00:41:14,230 --> 00:41:12,079
are some of the biggest cases

1172
00:41:16,790 --> 00:41:14,240
uh uh for a lot of people with regard to

1173
00:41:20,150 --> 00:41:16,800
the military and ufos for all of the

1174
00:41:21,349 --> 00:41:20,160
20th century you know um and and what

1175
00:41:24,150 --> 00:41:21,359
one thing that i really deeply

1176
00:41:25,990 --> 00:41:24,160
appreciate about this book is that you

1177
00:41:28,790 --> 00:41:26,000
contextualize things in such a

1178
00:41:30,069 --> 00:41:28,800
contemporary perspective you know even

1179
00:41:31,990 --> 00:41:30,079
in the first couple chapters you're

1180
00:41:33,829 --> 00:41:32,000
mentioning you know the conflict in

1181
00:41:36,069 --> 00:41:33,839
ukraine that's happening right now in

1182
00:41:38,390 --> 00:41:36,079
terms of saying you know even since the

1183
00:41:40,309 --> 00:41:38,400
50s so much of this has been couched in

1184
00:41:41,910 --> 00:41:40,319
terms of propaganda and the what if

1185
00:41:43,750 --> 00:41:41,920
they're what if it's the russians what

1186
00:41:46,230 --> 00:41:43,760
if it's the chinese and of course the

1187
00:41:48,069 --> 00:41:46,240
chinese didn't figure back then because

1188
00:41:49,430 --> 00:41:48,079
you know the chinese were nowhere near

1189
00:41:52,870 --> 00:41:49,440
where they are right now in terms of

1190
00:41:55,589 --> 00:41:52,880
capability um but the right the the the

1191
00:41:58,870 --> 00:41:55,599
cold war and and the russian factor was

1192
00:42:01,190 --> 00:41:58,880
was very much prevalent even you know

1193
00:42:03,829 --> 00:42:01,200
you're kind of leading from 50 to 52

1194
00:42:07,750 --> 00:42:03,839
into the robertson panel of january of

1195
00:42:09,589 --> 00:42:07,760
1953 but right but this kind of context

1196
00:42:11,589 --> 00:42:09,599
in terms of like drawing connections

1197
00:42:13,109 --> 00:42:11,599
between then and now is one of the

1198
00:42:15,030 --> 00:42:13,119
features of this book that could be

1199
00:42:16,630 --> 00:42:15,040
deeply appreciated by

1200
00:42:19,109 --> 00:42:16,640
people that are just coming into the

1201
00:42:21,510 --> 00:42:19,119
field people that have been into it for

1202
00:42:23,829 --> 00:42:21,520
a long time and are looking for a tether

1203
00:42:26,069 --> 00:42:23,839
from from now to them in a way that i

1204
00:42:28,790 --> 00:42:26,079
think that um you know some of the older

1205
00:42:31,510 --> 00:42:28,800
books in this field would would you know

1206
00:42:33,270 --> 00:42:31,520
would lack um for like a better term i

1207
00:42:34,870 --> 00:42:33,280
think i think as a history i mean

1208
00:42:36,470 --> 00:42:34,880
obviously i come from a historian kind

1209
00:42:37,990 --> 00:42:36,480
of point of view

1210
00:42:39,670 --> 00:42:38,000
drawing parallels between what happened

1211
00:42:41,670 --> 00:42:39,680
in the past and what happens now is a

1212
00:42:44,390 --> 00:42:41,680
great way of telling stories you know

1213
00:42:46,470 --> 00:42:44,400
about what happened back then but there

1214
00:42:48,069 --> 00:42:46,480
are parallels

1215
00:42:49,349 --> 00:42:48,079
the foo fighters that i talked about i

1216
00:42:51,510 --> 00:42:49,359
could find parallels between what

1217
00:42:53,190 --> 00:42:51,520
happened then and the

1218
00:42:54,309 --> 00:42:53,200
dave fravor's case

1219
00:42:56,069 --> 00:42:54,319
but the similar you mentioned the

1220
00:42:58,390 --> 00:42:56,079
dogfights then well they weren't just

1221
00:43:01,589 --> 00:42:58,400
dogfights in 51 there were dog fights in

1222
00:43:04,309 --> 00:43:01,599
48 as well um there were two i mean uh

1223
00:43:07,829 --> 00:43:04,319
so there was a george gorman case in in

1224
00:43:10,069 --> 00:43:07,839
in october 1948 which was effectively

1225
00:43:11,430 --> 00:43:10,079
you know give or take a different way of

1226
00:43:12,470 --> 00:43:11,440
flying around but it's essentially the

1227
00:43:14,950 --> 00:43:12,480
same kind of thing that happened with a

1228
00:43:17,109 --> 00:43:14,960
tic-tac you know that happened it

1229
00:43:20,710 --> 00:43:17,119
happened in 1943 with it were the foo

1230
00:43:22,470 --> 00:43:20,720
fighters um so these things happen

1231
00:43:25,670 --> 00:43:22,480
regularly but the cases in the book from

1232
00:43:27,990 --> 00:43:25,680
50 to 52 where jeff interceptors and

1233
00:43:30,309 --> 00:43:28,000
also piston engine fighters like the p51

1234
00:43:33,190 --> 00:43:30,319
muscle the f51 mustang were actually

1235
00:43:35,990 --> 00:43:33,200
involved in in almost engagements

1236
00:43:37,829 --> 00:43:36,000
without the firing but with objects that

1237
00:43:39,430 --> 00:43:37,839
they just didn't you know they couldn't

1238
00:43:41,030 --> 00:43:39,440
either get a grip with because they were

1239
00:43:43,109 --> 00:43:41,040
just too fast and too maneuverable for

1240
00:43:44,710 --> 00:43:43,119
them um and of course you know about

1241
00:43:46,710 --> 00:43:44,720
these things because they're happening

1242
00:43:48,470 --> 00:43:46,720
now but you mentioned ukraine i've

1243
00:43:49,750 --> 00:43:48,480
mentioned that in the book yes i've

1244
00:43:51,990 --> 00:43:49,760
linked that together i've linked the

1245
00:43:54,150 --> 00:43:52,000
kind of russian question in terms of

1246
00:43:55,750 --> 00:43:54,160
were these where you know were they the

1247
00:43:59,190 --> 00:43:55,760
source of them because there was always

1248
00:44:00,710 --> 00:43:59,200
the fear back then of um russian bombers

1249
00:44:03,190 --> 00:44:00,720
coming over the pole or coming over

1250
00:44:05,430 --> 00:44:03,200
alaska to attack uh targets in the

1251
00:44:07,910 --> 00:44:05,440
continental united states and if these

1252
00:44:10,710 --> 00:44:07,920
were manifestations of some soviet

1253
00:44:12,790 --> 00:44:10,720
developments in in amazing technology

1254
00:44:14,470 --> 00:44:12,800
than the the jet interceptors that the

1255
00:44:15,750 --> 00:44:14,480
u.s air force had at the time were just

1256
00:44:18,069 --> 00:44:15,760
you know inadequate they were totally

1257
00:44:20,950 --> 00:44:18,079
impotent in other words um but there's

1258
00:44:23,589 --> 00:44:20,960
also a parallels i i draw from the

1259
00:44:25,990 --> 00:44:23,599
the the actual radar cases and the

1260
00:44:27,750 --> 00:44:26,000
regular visual cases sorry washington in

1261
00:44:29,190 --> 00:44:27,760
july 52 the two weekends that you

1262
00:44:31,670 --> 00:44:29,200
mentioned

1263
00:44:34,150 --> 00:44:31,680
i say about the 911 cases about that

1264
00:44:36,390 --> 00:44:34,160
because there was a kind of per almost a

1265
00:44:37,430 --> 00:44:36,400
paralysis in terms of what are we going

1266
00:44:39,670 --> 00:44:37,440
to do

1267
00:44:41,109 --> 00:44:39,680
um when these things were being seen and

1268
00:44:42,790 --> 00:44:41,119
they're being plotted on radar they were

1269
00:44:44,230 --> 00:44:42,800
flying around washington but it was four

1270
00:44:46,309 --> 00:44:44,240
hours before the first jet fighters

1271
00:44:48,790 --> 00:44:46,319
turned up over this over the capital

1272
00:44:51,829 --> 00:44:48,800
now you know and i say you know go go

1273
00:44:53,829 --> 00:44:51,839
forward to 911. you know would that

1274
00:44:56,390 --> 00:44:53,839
knowing what we know now about

1275
00:44:58,230 --> 00:44:56,400
um allowing kind of mysterious things

1276
00:45:00,069 --> 00:44:58,240
over your nation's capital would that

1277
00:45:01,750 --> 00:45:00,079
situation arise now

1278
00:45:03,270 --> 00:45:01,760
yeah because of course it wouldn't you

1279
00:45:04,950 --> 00:45:03,280
know you get an aircraft come out of its

1280
00:45:07,990 --> 00:45:04,960
flight zone and you get a couple of

1281
00:45:09,349 --> 00:45:08,000
f-16s after it nowadays whereas back

1282
00:45:10,470 --> 00:45:09,359
then there were there was this kind of

1283
00:45:11,750 --> 00:45:10,480
paralysis

1284
00:45:13,510 --> 00:45:11,760
we're just oh yeah we'll just sit and

1285
00:45:15,670 --> 00:45:13,520
wait to see what happens you know and if

1286
00:45:17,430 --> 00:45:15,680
that had been a soviet aircraft on a

1287
00:45:19,349 --> 00:45:17,440
sneak attack anything a one-way mission

1288
00:45:21,670 --> 00:45:19,359
a suicide mission then they could have

1289
00:45:24,790 --> 00:45:21,680
wiped out the white house yeah

1290
00:45:26,150 --> 00:45:24,800
you know and it's probably a little

1291
00:45:27,910 --> 00:45:26,160
um

1292
00:45:29,430 --> 00:45:27,920
underrated as far as like the the

1293
00:45:30,950 --> 00:45:29,440
influence that it had on these

1294
00:45:34,710 --> 00:45:30,960
investigations was things like pearl

1295
00:45:36,390 --> 00:45:34,720
harbor you know and in in hawaii one

1296
00:45:37,430 --> 00:45:36,400
thing i wanted to ask you is that you

1297
00:45:39,030 --> 00:45:37,440
know

1298
00:45:40,550 --> 00:45:39,040
well i have two questions for you and

1299
00:45:44,950 --> 00:45:40,560
then you know you could probably go if

1300
00:45:44,960 --> 00:45:49,349
good because we got another hour to go

1301
00:45:49,359 --> 00:45:52,710
i'll just remember it sorry

1302
00:45:58,150 --> 00:45:55,910
the first one is you know now 1952 was

1303
00:46:01,030 --> 00:45:58,160
the year that was the bang-up year that

1304
00:46:04,230 --> 00:46:01,040
was the biggest year uh as far as all

1305
00:46:07,750 --> 00:46:04,240
sightings um now a lot of people

1306
00:46:08,950 --> 00:46:07,760
at least then it said that the the ufos

1307
00:46:11,829 --> 00:46:08,960
i think it was

1308
00:46:14,390 --> 00:46:11,839
the story over washington dc really lit

1309
00:46:15,589 --> 00:46:14,400
a spark and because of that a lot more

1310
00:46:17,430 --> 00:46:15,599
sightings came through the rest of the

1311
00:46:19,430 --> 00:46:17,440
year so what's your take on that if

1312
00:46:22,230 --> 00:46:19,440
you've evaluated that situation at all

1313
00:46:25,109 --> 00:46:22,240
or you know i guess any answer to

1314
00:46:27,510 --> 00:46:25,119
or speculation as to why 52 was such a

1315
00:46:30,230 --> 00:46:27,520
big year and then

1316
00:46:31,030 --> 00:46:30,240
the second question i'll just lead is um

1317
00:46:33,750 --> 00:46:31,040
um

1318
00:46:36,790 --> 00:46:33,760
how who who wrote the forward for your

1319
00:46:37,589 --> 00:46:36,800
book and and and how did that come to be

1320
00:46:39,510 --> 00:46:37,599
okay

1321
00:46:42,069 --> 00:46:39,520
um i'll answer that one first then um

1322
00:46:43,349 --> 00:46:42,079
get out of the way so i think people are

1323
00:46:45,030 --> 00:46:43,359
going to probably ask ask me two

1324
00:46:47,109 --> 00:46:45,040
questions um

1325
00:46:50,710 --> 00:46:47,119
what's the forward about and how did you

1326
00:46:53,109 --> 00:46:50,720
get louis honda to write it for you

1327
00:46:56,630 --> 00:46:53,119
so i'll answer the last one first i

1328
00:46:58,309 --> 00:46:56,640
asked him basically and he said yes um

1329
00:47:00,710 --> 00:46:58,319
that's all it was to it it was no kind

1330
00:47:02,230 --> 00:47:00,720
of you know schmutzling or um you know

1331
00:47:03,829 --> 00:47:02,240
giving him a fiver and all this kind of

1332
00:47:05,510 --> 00:47:03,839
stuff and it was just

1333
00:47:06,710 --> 00:47:05,520
just basically just contacted him one

1334
00:47:08,829 --> 00:47:06,720
day and said

1335
00:47:09,910 --> 00:47:08,839
would you would you like to do it

1336
00:47:11,270 --> 00:47:09,920
um and he

1337
00:47:12,870 --> 00:47:11,280
and he said yeah sure i'll be honored to

1338
00:47:15,589 --> 00:47:12,880
do it so and i sat in the draft and he

1339
00:47:17,270 --> 00:47:15,599
read through it and that was it um

1340
00:47:19,349 --> 00:47:17,280
yeah i wasn't expecting to say yes

1341
00:47:21,430 --> 00:47:19,359
because obviously he's you know

1342
00:47:23,030 --> 00:47:21,440
as you understand um

1343
00:47:24,470 --> 00:47:23,040
i wouldn't want him to endorse anything

1344
00:47:26,069 --> 00:47:24,480
and actually i don't believe forward as

1345
00:47:28,390 --> 00:47:26,079
an endorsement anyway

1346
00:47:29,990 --> 00:47:28,400
it's more uh kind of a commentary on on

1347
00:47:31,510 --> 00:47:30,000
something that somebody's writing so

1348
00:47:33,510 --> 00:47:31,520
people should read the book to get that

1349
00:47:35,270 --> 00:47:33,520
out of the way about the forward so

1350
00:47:37,349 --> 00:47:35,280
it's just nothing

1351
00:47:38,230 --> 00:47:37,359
and as for what he says well yes you're

1352
00:47:41,589 --> 00:47:38,240
gonna have to read the book because i'm

1353
00:47:43,349 --> 00:47:41,599
not gonna go into that um so that's that

1354
00:47:45,430 --> 00:47:43,359
um but yeah you know

1355
00:47:48,069 --> 00:47:45,440
you might you might learn something new

1356
00:47:50,549 --> 00:47:48,079
um that's all i prepared to say and in

1357
00:47:53,030 --> 00:47:50,559
terms of yeah

1358
00:47:53,910 --> 00:47:53,040
52 well it had been building up for

1359
00:47:56,069 --> 00:47:53,920
years

1360
00:47:58,230 --> 00:47:56,079
um yes i mean the title of the book

1361
00:48:00,470 --> 00:47:58,240
flying saucer fever is no accident you

1362
00:48:02,309 --> 00:48:00,480
know i i wanted to kind of get across

1363
00:48:04,790 --> 00:48:02,319
the fact that it was a you know it was a

1364
00:48:06,790 --> 00:48:04,800
feverish febrile time where there was

1365
00:48:08,790 --> 00:48:06,800
the kind of tension the anticipation the

1366
00:48:10,470 --> 00:48:08,800
kind of almost fear as well was getting

1367
00:48:12,230 --> 00:48:10,480
ramped up and it wasn't just being

1368
00:48:13,750 --> 00:48:12,240
ramped up by the newspapers you know

1369
00:48:15,510 --> 00:48:13,760
people were seeing things they were

1370
00:48:17,510 --> 00:48:15,520
seeing things regularly and then of

1371
00:48:20,150 --> 00:48:17,520
course the stories of um you know the

1372
00:48:22,230 --> 00:48:20,160
nation's air defenses being inadequate

1373
00:48:24,230 --> 00:48:22,240
being impotent you know people would

1374
00:48:25,829 --> 00:48:24,240
start to get worried that you know these

1375
00:48:26,790 --> 00:48:25,839
were well because there was this

1376
00:48:28,870 --> 00:48:26,800
narrative that it was going to be the

1377
00:48:30,309 --> 00:48:28,880
russians well who else would it be it

1378
00:48:31,750 --> 00:48:30,319
was like the foo fighters you know it

1379
00:48:33,430 --> 00:48:31,760
would be the germans who else would it

1380
00:48:35,589 --> 00:48:33,440
be well this time it was the russians

1381
00:48:37,670 --> 00:48:35,599
wasn't the chinese as jay say because

1382
00:48:39,750 --> 00:48:37,680
they were still effectively you know a

1383
00:48:41,670 --> 00:48:39,760
very um kind of you know sort of

1384
00:48:44,710 --> 00:48:41,680
war-torn country that were just getting

1385
00:48:46,790 --> 00:48:44,720
over a civil wall um and they had no

1386
00:48:48,390 --> 00:48:46,800
real industrial power base to come up

1387
00:48:49,670 --> 00:48:48,400
with amazing weapons

1388
00:48:51,030 --> 00:48:49,680
at that time

1389
00:48:53,829 --> 00:48:51,040
but the russians

1390
00:48:55,510 --> 00:48:53,839
did have some capacity to build things

1391
00:48:56,950 --> 00:48:55,520
which were out of the ordinary they

1392
00:48:59,270 --> 00:48:56,960
certainly had the fruits of german

1393
00:49:01,829 --> 00:48:59,280
technology and scientists and engineers

1394
00:49:03,589 --> 00:49:01,839
that they'd basically coerced and stolen

1395
00:49:05,670 --> 00:49:03,599
during the war uh starts at the end of

1396
00:49:08,150 --> 00:49:05,680
the war sorry so

1397
00:49:09,750 --> 00:49:08,160
they have the the capability to build

1398
00:49:12,549 --> 00:49:09,760
things that might have

1399
00:49:14,390 --> 00:49:12,559
had an influence um in terms of things

1400
00:49:16,790 --> 00:49:14,400
that could be mistaken for

1401
00:49:19,349 --> 00:49:16,800
ufos at that time but actually what they

1402
00:49:21,430 --> 00:49:19,359
had no they didn't have that although

1403
00:49:23,829 --> 00:49:21,440
people still thought they did

1404
00:49:25,829 --> 00:49:23,839
um but this the num the frequency of

1405
00:49:27,829 --> 00:49:25,839
sightings and the type of sightings the

1406
00:49:29,589 --> 00:49:27,839
nature of them and the way that these

1407
00:49:30,390 --> 00:49:29,599
things were just being able to run rings

1408
00:49:33,270 --> 00:49:30,400
around

1409
00:49:35,349 --> 00:49:33,280
the the latest jet interceptors and and

1410
00:49:36,950 --> 00:49:35,359
you know air defenses the radar systems

1411
00:49:38,470 --> 00:49:36,960
and all this kind of thing

1412
00:49:40,069 --> 00:49:38,480
must have been really frightening not

1413
00:49:41,829 --> 00:49:40,079
just to civilians who are reading about

1414
00:49:43,589 --> 00:49:41,839
the newspapers but also the people who

1415
00:49:46,150 --> 00:49:43,599
are making decisions the people who were

1416
00:49:48,470 --> 00:49:46,160
in charge of defense facilities you know

1417
00:49:51,270 --> 00:49:48,480
the sending the aircraft out saying um

1418
00:49:52,390 --> 00:49:51,280
working in charge of radar and

1419
00:49:53,990 --> 00:49:52,400
knowing that they couldn't do anything

1420
00:49:55,430 --> 00:49:54,000
about it and yet night after night after

1421
00:49:57,270 --> 00:49:55,440
night there were reports of these things

1422
00:49:59,030 --> 00:49:57,280
but then also the people in charge the

1423
00:50:00,950 --> 00:49:59,040
people higher up the food chain the

1424
00:50:03,750 --> 00:50:00,960
people who are making policy decisions

1425
00:50:07,270 --> 00:50:03,760
as to what we do about this and yes okay

1426
00:50:08,950 --> 00:50:07,280
in some levels before july 52 it must it

1427
00:50:10,870 --> 00:50:08,960
might have been an academic exercise for

1428
00:50:12,309 --> 00:50:10,880
some of them just saying

1429
00:50:13,829 --> 00:50:12,319
yeah okay we've got this problem but

1430
00:50:15,430 --> 00:50:13,839
they're not really doing anything you

1431
00:50:16,710 --> 00:50:15,440
know that they're flying around but okay

1432
00:50:18,309 --> 00:50:16,720
and then they fly off and nothing's

1433
00:50:20,470 --> 00:50:18,319
happening but when they actually turned

1434
00:50:22,470 --> 00:50:20,480
up over the nation's capital not just

1435
00:50:23,270 --> 00:50:22,480
one weekend but the following weekend as

1436
00:50:24,069 --> 00:50:23,280
well

1437
00:50:25,349 --> 00:50:24,079
and

1438
00:50:27,190 --> 00:50:25,359
you know

1439
00:50:28,870 --> 00:50:27,200
they eventually sent jet interceptors

1440
00:50:30,470 --> 00:50:28,880
out after them after the first after the

1441
00:50:32,309 --> 00:50:30,480
first four hours on the first weekend

1442
00:50:33,750 --> 00:50:32,319
but the things disappeared and then as

1443
00:50:35,109 --> 00:50:33,760
soon as because these aircraft were low

1444
00:50:36,790 --> 00:50:35,119
on fuel they didn't have much in the way

1445
00:50:38,470 --> 00:50:36,800
of fuel reserves anyway they could only

1446
00:50:40,309 --> 00:50:38,480
stay on target for like 10 minutes 20

1447
00:50:42,790 --> 00:50:40,319
minutes at a time and then had to head

1448
00:50:44,150 --> 00:50:42,800
back to the base um

1449
00:50:45,349 --> 00:50:44,160
the things came back again as soon as

1450
00:50:47,109 --> 00:50:45,359
they disappeared

1451
00:50:48,710 --> 00:50:47,119
you know so it was almost as they knew

1452
00:50:50,790 --> 00:50:48,720
the limitations of the aircraft that

1453
00:50:51,829 --> 00:50:50,800
were there at the time and of course the

1454
00:50:53,589 --> 00:50:51,839
same thing happened the following

1455
00:50:55,109 --> 00:50:53,599
weekend that there bit it was a quicker

1456
00:50:56,710 --> 00:50:55,119
response time because i think there was

1457
00:50:58,470 --> 00:50:56,720
a lot of pressure put on the on the us

1458
00:51:00,069 --> 00:50:58,480
air force to you've got to do something

1459
00:51:01,030 --> 00:51:00,079
about this this time rather than just

1460
00:51:02,390 --> 00:51:01,040
sitting in your hands and thinking oh

1461
00:51:04,309 --> 00:51:02,400
well yeah the intelligence officers are

1462
00:51:05,990 --> 00:51:04,319
asleep oh yeah we can't contact them in

1463
00:51:07,349 --> 00:51:06,000
the morning um yeah we've set the

1464
00:51:09,349 --> 00:51:07,359
information up the chain but and

1465
00:51:11,510 --> 00:51:09,359
actually no you hadn't because i found

1466
00:51:13,270 --> 00:51:11,520
that out the first weekend

1467
00:51:14,870 --> 00:51:13,280
that the information hadn't actually

1468
00:51:16,549 --> 00:51:14,880
been passed up the proper channels it

1469
00:51:18,549 --> 00:51:16,559
was only when they asked again a few

1470
00:51:20,069 --> 00:51:18,559
hours later oh no it hasn't oh yeah

1471
00:51:22,549 --> 00:51:20,079
we'll do that for you

1472
00:51:24,630 --> 00:51:22,559
kind of thing you know so it was

1473
00:51:26,150 --> 00:51:24,640
it was a really crazy time um but then

1474
00:51:27,750 --> 00:51:26,160
the weekend the next weekend they got

1475
00:51:30,069 --> 00:51:27,760
their act together a bit more but the

1476
00:51:31,750 --> 00:51:30,079
two weekends themselves had so much of

1477
00:51:32,710 --> 00:51:31,760
an impact on

1478
00:51:34,150 --> 00:51:32,720
you know

1479
00:51:35,510 --> 00:51:34,160
just the information that was coming out

1480
00:51:37,589 --> 00:51:35,520
in the newspapers well what are you

1481
00:51:39,349 --> 00:51:37,599
going to do about this that they had to

1482
00:51:40,150 --> 00:51:39,359
do something and of course they trotted

1483
00:51:42,390 --> 00:51:40,160
out

1484
00:51:44,230 --> 00:51:42,400
uh gerald sanford you know

1485
00:51:45,270 --> 00:51:44,240
intelligence and they had him sit in

1486
00:51:45,990 --> 00:51:45,280
front of a

1487
00:51:57,109 --> 00:51:46,000
a

1488
00:51:58,950 --> 00:51:57,119
it of him

1489
00:52:01,270 --> 00:51:58,960
you know feeling these questions and he

1490
00:52:03,910 --> 00:52:01,280
was pretty much out of his depth really

1491
00:52:05,510 --> 00:52:03,920
you know he's um he was uh he was

1492
00:52:07,430 --> 00:52:05,520
totally out of it i mean he was

1493
00:52:09,430 --> 00:52:07,440
struggling with some of the questions to

1494
00:52:12,390 --> 00:52:09,440
answer them he had uh he had a radar

1495
00:52:14,069 --> 00:52:12,400
expert uh with him as well who

1496
00:52:16,150 --> 00:52:14,079
was a bit kind of contradictory in terms

1497
00:52:18,309 --> 00:52:16,160
of what the kind of the line was about

1498
00:52:20,470 --> 00:52:18,319
what the official term for what the

1499
00:52:21,829 --> 00:52:20,480
scene was there the radar propagation

1500
00:52:24,150 --> 00:52:21,839
what are you going to say

1501
00:52:25,829 --> 00:52:24,160
you know there is multiple radar units

1502
00:52:28,069 --> 00:52:25,839
that pick these things up it wasn't just

1503
00:52:30,309 --> 00:52:28,079
like one but the aircraft pilots were

1504
00:52:32,069 --> 00:52:30,319
saying them as well at the same time

1505
00:52:34,549 --> 00:52:32,079
it was an eastern airline pilot who was

1506
00:52:36,150 --> 00:52:34,559
asked to turn around so he could see

1507
00:52:38,630 --> 00:52:36,160
this object that had been picked up on

1508
00:52:40,950 --> 00:52:38,640
the radar and he went yep i see it

1509
00:52:41,990 --> 00:52:40,960
what kind of thing so the radar visual

1510
00:52:43,910 --> 00:52:42,000
cases

1511
00:52:45,750 --> 00:52:43,920
such a great case i got into the the

1512
00:52:47,750 --> 00:52:45,760
temperature inversion aspect of it too

1513
00:52:49,750 --> 00:52:47,760
and i believe it was where like the

1514
00:52:53,270 --> 00:52:49,760
temperature inversions happen

1515
00:52:54,150 --> 00:52:53,280
during typically during a certain time

1516
00:52:56,790 --> 00:52:54,160
of day

1517
00:52:59,349 --> 00:52:56,800
or night and also at a certain point in

1518
00:53:00,630 --> 00:52:59,359
the sky i forget it's like 18 000 feet

1519
00:53:03,349 --> 00:53:00,640
or something like that

1520
00:53:05,349 --> 00:53:03,359
um and i believe like the visual

1521
00:53:07,750 --> 00:53:05,359
sighting was higher than that it was at

1522
00:53:10,390 --> 00:53:07,760
like 30 000 or something and the time of

1523
00:53:11,910 --> 00:53:10,400
day was was off as well

1524
00:53:13,349 --> 00:53:11,920
you also have to remember

1525
00:53:14,790 --> 00:53:13,359
you have to remember these radar

1526
00:53:17,430 --> 00:53:14,800
controllers at washington national

1527
00:53:19,990 --> 00:53:17,440
airport were really really experienced

1528
00:53:21,910 --> 00:53:20,000
so it was an incredibly busy airport

1529
00:53:23,750 --> 00:53:21,920
incredibly busy airspace and they

1530
00:53:25,510 --> 00:53:23,760
wouldn't have been there in that job if

1531
00:53:27,270 --> 00:53:25,520
they didn't know what they were doing

1532
00:53:29,190 --> 00:53:27,280
you know and they would have tons of

1533
00:53:31,349 --> 00:53:29,200
experience and they would see things

1534
00:53:32,950 --> 00:53:31,359
like that on a fairly regular basis you

1535
00:53:35,030 --> 00:53:32,960
know the kind of proper

1536
00:53:36,630 --> 00:53:35,040
radar angels as you call you know yeah

1537
00:53:37,910 --> 00:53:36,640
angels yeah they would know what they

1538
00:53:40,390 --> 00:53:37,920
were because they would have seen them

1539
00:53:41,910 --> 00:53:40,400
before and yet they saw them one weekend

1540
00:53:44,150 --> 00:53:41,920
and then they saw him another weekend

1541
00:53:46,870 --> 00:53:44,160
and they could tell the difference

1542
00:53:48,230 --> 00:53:46,880
even experienced radar controllers could

1543
00:53:50,309 --> 00:53:48,240
tell the difference between these kind

1544
00:53:52,630 --> 00:53:50,319
of spurious echoes that were you know

1545
00:53:54,390 --> 00:53:52,640
spurious that were proper uh radar

1546
00:53:57,030 --> 00:53:54,400
angels and these things were something

1547
00:53:59,109 --> 00:53:57,040
different and they said as much um so

1548
00:54:01,270 --> 00:53:59,119
and even the radar expert like sort of

1549
00:54:03,270 --> 00:54:01,280
agreed to a point that you know these

1550
00:54:04,950 --> 00:54:03,280
weren't necessarily what the air force

1551
00:54:06,790 --> 00:54:04,960
were trying to say they were but the

1552
00:54:08,470 --> 00:54:06,800
pilots were seeing them as well and it

1553
00:54:11,109 --> 00:54:08,480
just became a complete fast but of

1554
00:54:13,589 --> 00:54:11,119
course the press after building

1555
00:54:15,030 --> 00:54:13,599
everything up to this point of frenzy

1556
00:54:16,470 --> 00:54:15,040
this feverish

1557
00:54:18,710 --> 00:54:16,480
atmosphere you know we're going to be

1558
00:54:21,190 --> 00:54:18,720
invaded or what all these things flying

1559
00:54:23,510 --> 00:54:21,200
around the capital kind of stuff that

1560
00:54:25,910 --> 00:54:23,520
there was a kind of it was anti-climax

1561
00:54:27,829 --> 00:54:25,920
because they had a general a fairly

1562
00:54:29,190 --> 00:54:27,839
well-respected man you know standing and

1563
00:54:30,630 --> 00:54:29,200
sitting in front of them saying oh yeah

1564
00:54:33,589 --> 00:54:30,640
don't worry it's all this and i think

1565
00:54:36,470 --> 00:54:33,599
they lapped it up and they went away

1566
00:54:38,549 --> 00:54:36,480
reasonably satisfied so it was a kind of

1567
00:54:39,990 --> 00:54:38,559
it took the pressure away and

1568
00:54:41,990 --> 00:54:40,000
but the sighting still happened

1569
00:54:43,990 --> 00:54:42,000
afterwards albeit not on that scale but

1570
00:54:47,750 --> 00:54:44,000
they were still there

1571
00:54:49,670 --> 00:54:47,760
not to hog the mic j i just rarely get

1572
00:54:51,190 --> 00:54:49,680
a chance to speak

1573
00:54:53,349 --> 00:54:51,200
about this stuff

1574
00:54:55,910 --> 00:54:53,359
with with somebody that's uh so just

1575
00:54:57,910 --> 00:54:55,920
brilliant and smart like like graham but

1576
00:54:59,270 --> 00:54:57,920
little did people know and then i'll let

1577
00:55:00,230 --> 00:54:59,280
you take it from here but little did

1578
00:55:02,230 --> 00:55:00,240
people know

1579
00:55:04,069 --> 00:55:02,240
graham and and what did you think of

1580
00:55:06,789 --> 00:55:04,079
this like when

1581
00:55:09,910 --> 00:55:06,799
samford is doing that talk you know and

1582
00:55:13,349 --> 00:55:09,920
it's all around dc little do people know

1583
00:55:16,230 --> 00:55:13,359
that these this same kind of thing was

1584
00:55:18,710 --> 00:55:16,240
happening all over the country yeah

1585
00:55:21,030 --> 00:55:18,720
right around that time like langley air

1586
00:55:23,430 --> 00:55:21,040
force base all over the place all over

1587
00:55:25,349 --> 00:55:23,440
the country so in his mind when he's

1588
00:55:28,150 --> 00:55:25,359
talking right there even though it's

1589
00:55:30,309 --> 00:55:28,160
centered around dc this guy's got all

1590
00:55:32,630 --> 00:55:30,319
these different sightings happening all

1591
00:55:34,150 --> 00:55:32,640
over the place in his head

1592
00:55:35,349 --> 00:55:34,160
that's right the langley is citing it

1593
00:55:36,630 --> 00:55:35,359
actually happened about two o'clock

1594
00:55:37,910 --> 00:55:36,640
earlier that day it hadn't been the

1595
00:55:39,190 --> 00:55:37,920
night time that had been the one that

1596
00:55:41,990 --> 00:55:39,200
had kicked off the sightings on the

1597
00:55:43,910 --> 00:55:42,000
second weekend the that you know that

1598
00:55:45,589 --> 00:55:43,920
it's mentioned in the book um

1599
00:55:48,069 --> 00:55:45,599
so yes you're right there were they were

1600
00:55:50,230 --> 00:55:48,079
happening all over the place but the

1601
00:55:51,910 --> 00:55:50,240
press lovely latched on the fact that it

1602
00:55:53,589 --> 00:55:51,920
was these two weekends and it was just

1603
00:55:55,190 --> 00:55:53,599
sighting after cycling after sighting

1604
00:55:56,950 --> 00:55:55,200
and they were just like loitering around

1605
00:55:58,390 --> 00:55:56,960
the city and nothing nobody could do

1606
00:55:59,349 --> 00:55:58,400
anything about it and they didn't know

1607
00:56:00,710 --> 00:55:59,359
what they were and they didn't know what

1608
00:56:02,390 --> 00:56:00,720
the capability was and didn't know what

1609
00:56:04,630 --> 00:56:02,400
their intention was didn't know who they

1610
00:56:05,990 --> 00:56:04,640
were either and it was just well it you

1611
00:56:07,829 --> 00:56:06,000
know put yourself in the shoes of the

1612
00:56:09,349 --> 00:56:07,839
people then you know reading these

1613
00:56:12,309 --> 00:56:09,359
reports and they must have been

1614
00:56:13,430 --> 00:56:12,319
absolutely petrified some of the people

1615
00:56:14,870 --> 00:56:13,440
you know

1616
00:56:16,230 --> 00:56:14,880
yeah it must have been an interesting

1617
00:56:18,950 --> 00:56:16,240
time it would look to be a fly on the

1618
00:56:20,950 --> 00:56:18,960
wall in the radar center at washington

1619
00:56:23,270 --> 00:56:20,960
national you know

1620
00:56:24,789 --> 00:56:23,280
seeing what was going on in the kind of

1621
00:56:26,150 --> 00:56:24,799
all the battles and forwards of the

1622
00:56:28,789 --> 00:56:26,160
chatter and

1623
00:56:30,710 --> 00:56:28,799
kind of frantic phone calls to to

1624
00:56:32,789 --> 00:56:30,720
andrews air force base to out and

1625
00:56:34,309 --> 00:56:32,799
bowling air force base as well to ask

1626
00:56:36,470 --> 00:56:34,319
them you know have you passed this

1627
00:56:38,630 --> 00:56:36,480
information on where are the jets you

1628
00:56:41,589 --> 00:56:38,640
know what's going on it must have been

1629
00:56:43,670 --> 00:56:41,599
really something to to experience

1630
00:56:46,630 --> 00:56:43,680
yeah it's it's really interesting you

1631
00:56:49,190 --> 00:56:46,640
know um and for those that that are

1632
00:56:51,430 --> 00:56:49,200
are joining the the ufology conversation

1633
00:56:52,870 --> 00:56:51,440
the uap conversation within the last few

1634
00:56:55,829 --> 00:56:52,880
years it

1635
00:56:58,069 --> 00:56:55,839
um they may not know necessarily that

1636
00:56:59,910 --> 00:56:58,079
that a huge display like this happened

1637
00:57:02,309 --> 00:56:59,920
you know there's there's often

1638
00:57:04,230 --> 00:57:02,319
there's often this this kind of

1639
00:57:05,990 --> 00:57:04,240
uh there's this understanding there's

1640
00:57:08,230 --> 00:57:06,000
always been this kind of like truism

1641
00:57:10,789 --> 00:57:08,240
thanks katie of um

1642
00:57:12,789 --> 00:57:10,799
of of like well why don't they just land

1643
00:57:16,069 --> 00:57:12,799
on the white house law or something like

1644
00:57:18,950 --> 00:57:16,079
that right and in 1952 we came about as

1645
00:57:21,990 --> 00:57:18,960
close to that in a public way as we've

1646
00:57:24,470 --> 00:57:22,000
as we've ever seen so so here we are 70

1647
00:57:26,950 --> 00:57:24,480
years ago and there was kind of an

1648
00:57:29,829 --> 00:57:26,960
equivalent situation in a very

1649
00:57:31,109 --> 00:57:29,839
in a in a kind of standoffish way where

1650
00:57:33,589 --> 00:57:31,119
where we had

1651
00:57:37,750 --> 00:57:33,599
these not just one but several large

1652
00:57:39,910 --> 00:57:37,760
displays of of these uh of these craft

1653
00:57:42,950 --> 00:57:39,920
hovering over and kind of loitering over

1654
00:57:44,470 --> 00:57:42,960
as you said the dc area um so you know

1655
00:57:46,950 --> 00:57:44,480
they've kind of already ticked that box

1656
00:57:47,750 --> 00:57:46,960
off in a way you know and then and then

1657
00:57:50,069 --> 00:57:47,760
um

1658
00:57:51,670 --> 00:57:50,079
of course uh back in the 40s there was a

1659
00:57:54,309 --> 00:57:51,680
similar case what was called the battle

1660
00:57:57,910 --> 00:57:54,319
of l.a you know or the battle over la

1661
00:57:59,510 --> 00:57:57,920
where where um a very large luminous

1662
00:58:03,670 --> 00:57:59,520
craft

1663
00:58:05,030 --> 00:58:03,680
um was over la and was shelled

1664
00:58:09,030 --> 00:58:05,040
because it was during

1665
00:58:10,630 --> 00:58:09,040
world war ii and there was seemingly no

1666
00:58:12,309 --> 00:58:10,640
um

1667
00:58:14,710 --> 00:58:12,319
nothing that happened to the craft

1668
00:58:17,190 --> 00:58:14,720
itself having thousands of rounds of

1669
00:58:18,710 --> 00:58:17,200
fire uh thrown at it in the middle of

1670
00:58:20,950 --> 00:58:18,720
the night and this was of course seen by

1671
00:58:23,829 --> 00:58:20,960
thousands and thousands of people and it

1672
00:58:26,630 --> 00:58:23,839
made major newspapers um do you think

1673
00:58:29,510 --> 00:58:26,640
that there are any other cases that are

1674
00:58:32,710 --> 00:58:29,520
as important as far as a display

1675
00:58:34,150 --> 00:58:32,720
as the 1952 case or the battle of la is

1676
00:58:36,870 --> 00:58:34,160
there anything else that even kind of

1677
00:58:39,270 --> 00:58:36,880
registers as being close with regard to

1678
00:58:41,109 --> 00:58:39,280
those cases funnily enough um dave

1679
00:58:43,349 --> 00:58:41,119
partridge and i are just discussing the

1680
00:58:45,430 --> 00:58:43,359
um the battle of la in our latest uh

1681
00:58:48,309 --> 00:58:45,440
unidentified aerial podcast

1682
00:58:50,309 --> 00:58:48,319
so uh which is about to come out so um

1683
00:58:52,950 --> 00:58:50,319
yeah well aware of that particular uh

1684
00:58:55,670 --> 00:58:52,960
incident which happened in february 1942

1685
00:58:58,470 --> 00:58:55,680
um off of um yeah

1686
00:58:59,349 --> 00:58:58,480
over la it was a very strange experience

1687
00:59:02,069 --> 00:58:59,359
so

1688
00:59:02,950 --> 00:59:02,079
yeah there are cases which as you say

1689
00:59:05,109 --> 00:59:02,960
are

1690
00:59:06,230 --> 00:59:05,119
kind of vast importance the phoenix

1691
00:59:08,470 --> 00:59:06,240
lights is probably the one that would

1692
00:59:11,510 --> 00:59:08,480
come to mind i believe and that was one

1693
00:59:12,630 --> 00:59:11,520
1997 um where there was this you know

1694
00:59:14,230 --> 00:59:12,640
kind of it wasn't a triangular

1695
00:59:16,230 --> 00:59:14,240
watercraft it was a v-shaped craft

1696
00:59:18,630 --> 00:59:16,240
wasn't it with the lights along uh along

1697
00:59:22,630 --> 00:59:18,640
both sides of the v that drifted over

1698
00:59:24,390 --> 00:59:22,640
phoenix uh and then everybody saw uh and

1699
00:59:26,150 --> 00:59:24,400
was it tens of thousands of people saw

1700
00:59:28,069 --> 00:59:26,160
it wasn't just a few a few people or a

1701
00:59:30,230 --> 00:59:28,079
few hundred people it was

1702
00:59:31,829 --> 00:59:30,240
you know it seems at one point it might

1703
00:59:32,789 --> 00:59:31,839
as well be the whole population of the

1704
00:59:33,990 --> 00:59:32,799
city

1705
00:59:36,710 --> 00:59:34,000
may have seen it it was one of those

1706
00:59:37,910 --> 00:59:36,720
things that everybody claims yes i saw

1707
00:59:39,349 --> 00:59:37,920
it that night

1708
00:59:40,870 --> 00:59:39,359
you know or if they didn't they knew

1709
00:59:42,950 --> 00:59:40,880
somebody claimed

1710
00:59:45,030 --> 00:59:42,960
they saw it that night and probably half

1711
00:59:47,270 --> 00:59:45,040
of that you probably did see it um you

1712
00:59:48,549 --> 00:59:47,280
know it was one of those huge spectacles

1713
00:59:50,309 --> 00:59:48,559
and then of course later on you know

1714
00:59:51,589 --> 00:59:50,319
they have the air force flying around

1715
00:59:52,870 --> 00:59:51,599
and dropping flares or pretending to

1716
00:59:54,549 --> 00:59:52,880
drop flares and all this kind of stuff

1717
00:59:56,549 --> 00:59:54,559
to try and muddy the waters there's

1718
00:59:58,950 --> 00:59:56,559
actually a case funnily from the book

1719
01:00:00,950 --> 00:59:58,960
that i wrote that actually is apparent

1720
01:00:02,549 --> 01:00:00,960
here's a parallel again for you where

1721
01:00:04,870 --> 01:00:02,559
there'd been a case and then the

1722
01:00:07,910 --> 01:00:04,880
american air force flew crisscross

1723
01:00:10,710 --> 01:00:07,920
contrails over the area to try and

1724
01:00:12,710 --> 01:00:10,720
hide the evidence maybe yeah so that's a

1725
01:00:14,630 --> 01:00:12,720
little story in the book as well so

1726
01:00:16,789 --> 01:00:14,640
there's you know things happen like that

1727
01:00:19,270 --> 01:00:16,799
it's it's really weird so yeah phoenix

1728
01:00:21,430 --> 01:00:19,280
lights you know hands down wins i think

1729
01:00:24,069 --> 01:00:21,440
in terms of spectacle unless of course

1730
01:00:27,030 --> 01:00:24,079
you're no different

1731
01:00:30,710 --> 01:00:28,870
uh jay you mentioned about you know were

1732
01:00:32,870 --> 01:00:30,720
they waiting for the to land on the

1733
01:00:35,109 --> 01:00:32,880
white house lawn in 52 well they'd

1734
01:00:37,030 --> 01:00:35,119
already pretty much done it on celluloid

1735
01:00:40,230 --> 01:00:37,040
the year before because the day the

1736
01:00:43,270 --> 01:00:40,240
earth that still came out in 1951 with

1737
01:00:46,150 --> 01:00:43,280
you know with um clatto's um

1738
01:00:47,910 --> 01:00:46,160
space ship landing on a baseball diamond

1739
01:00:49,990 --> 01:00:47,920
it wasn't it was on a park next to the

1740
01:00:51,829 --> 01:00:50,000
washington monument and of course that

1741
01:00:54,069 --> 01:00:51,839
was probably fresh in people's minds as

1742
01:00:55,829 --> 01:00:54,079
well at the time you know were these

1743
01:00:56,950 --> 01:00:55,839
things flying around the skies was it

1744
01:00:58,710 --> 01:00:56,960
something like that that was going to

1745
01:01:01,030 --> 01:00:58,720
drop in it was going to be this huge

1746
01:01:02,390 --> 01:01:01,040
terrifying robot come out of it you know

1747
01:01:04,549 --> 01:01:02,400
sort of thing so

1748
01:01:05,990 --> 01:01:04,559
which would um you know shoot death rags

1749
01:01:07,990 --> 01:01:06,000
out of it and demolish tanks and

1750
01:01:11,829 --> 01:01:08,000
artillery and guns and people and you

1751
01:01:13,510 --> 01:01:11,839
know so yeah frightening times

1752
01:01:15,829 --> 01:01:13,520
so other than i don't want to give too

1753
01:01:17,030 --> 01:01:15,839
much uh stuff away in your book i guess

1754
01:01:18,950 --> 01:01:17,040
but um

1755
01:01:21,109 --> 01:01:18,960
what is the

1756
01:01:22,870 --> 01:01:21,119
the your favorite unknown case from the

1757
01:01:25,670 --> 01:01:22,880
time period he wrote about

1758
01:01:27,510 --> 01:01:25,680
oh some good ones there's two actually

1759
01:01:30,309 --> 01:01:27,520
but they're actually linked and happened

1760
01:01:32,470 --> 01:01:30,319
over career um so you've got you've got

1761
01:01:34,950 --> 01:01:32,480
jet fighter pilots and what they see are

1762
01:01:37,190 --> 01:01:34,960
these oblong shapes

1763
01:01:39,990 --> 01:01:37,200
and they see them on successive days

1764
01:01:42,150 --> 01:01:40,000
um and they the first person who said

1765
01:01:43,990 --> 01:01:42,160
the first pilot who saw one thought it

1766
01:01:45,190 --> 01:01:44,000
was a gunnery target like a drogue you

1767
01:01:47,270 --> 01:01:45,200
know the things that they're towed along

1768
01:01:48,630 --> 01:01:47,280
by other aircraft and and pilots like

1769
01:01:50,150 --> 01:01:48,640
use them as gunnery practice the shoot

1770
01:01:51,510 --> 01:01:50,160
of them they try and shoot holes in them

1771
01:01:53,190 --> 01:01:51,520
with them

1772
01:01:54,630 --> 01:01:53,200
die tip bullets so you can see who's

1773
01:01:55,670 --> 01:01:54,640
actually fired the bullets at the

1774
01:01:57,270 --> 01:01:55,680
targets

1775
01:01:59,430 --> 01:01:57,280
so they thought it might be one those

1776
01:02:01,109 --> 01:01:59,440
that got loose and just was flying but

1777
01:02:02,950 --> 01:02:01,119
it was flying quite high and it didn't

1778
01:02:05,910 --> 01:02:02,960
look like a drogue it was it was quite a

1779
01:02:07,430 --> 01:02:05,920
regular shape and then the another pilot

1780
01:02:09,510 --> 01:02:07,440
saw another one the same day in a

1781
01:02:11,510 --> 01:02:09,520
different part of korea so

1782
01:02:14,069 --> 01:02:11,520
there was something weird flying around

1783
01:02:16,230 --> 01:02:14,079
um and that that that was not one but

1784
01:02:18,470 --> 01:02:16,240
actually that's not the probably the the

1785
01:02:20,549 --> 01:02:18,480
one i'm really interested in i have a

1786
01:02:23,190 --> 01:02:20,559
purse a very tenuous

1787
01:02:24,470 --> 01:02:23,200
tenuous personal connection with one of

1788
01:02:26,150 --> 01:02:24,480
the stories from russia what do you

1789
01:02:28,230 --> 01:02:26,160
believe i know

1790
01:02:29,829 --> 01:02:28,240
russia is not the kind of place that you

1791
01:02:31,750 --> 01:02:29,839
should really talk about at the moment

1792
01:02:33,990 --> 01:02:31,760
but where it happened a place called

1793
01:02:36,549 --> 01:02:34,000
nizhny kreshti which is like four

1794
01:02:40,230 --> 01:02:36,559
crosses uh low crop it means low crosses

1795
01:02:41,430 --> 01:02:40,240
in in russian um i visited there in july

1796
01:02:43,670 --> 01:02:41,440
ninety two

1797
01:02:46,630 --> 01:02:43,680
uh it's a polar research settlement um

1798
01:02:48,150 --> 01:02:46,640
on the on the near the arctic ocean um

1799
01:02:51,349 --> 01:02:48,160
in northeastern siberia it's actually

1800
01:02:52,630 --> 01:02:51,359
called chersky now uh but that site so i

1801
01:02:54,870 --> 01:02:52,640
know the place

1802
01:02:56,789 --> 01:02:54,880
very very well um so when i was

1803
01:02:58,950 --> 01:02:56,799
researching it and i found oh yeah and

1804
01:03:00,789 --> 01:02:58,960
this name cropped up of siberia i

1805
01:03:03,430 --> 01:03:00,799
thought i know where that is

1806
01:03:05,430 --> 01:03:03,440
so um i managed to use one of my

1807
01:03:07,990 --> 01:03:05,440
photographs in the book to develop

1808
01:03:12,549 --> 01:03:08,000
somewhere which is which is amazing so

1809
01:03:17,510 --> 01:03:15,750
a photo taken by me yeah photograph

1810
01:03:19,589 --> 01:03:17,520
taken by the author

1811
01:03:22,069 --> 01:03:19,599
uh well we're we're up against the hour

1812
01:03:24,390 --> 01:03:22,079
here unless um jay do you have any other

1813
01:03:26,549 --> 01:03:24,400
questions for for mr randall

1814
01:03:28,950 --> 01:03:26,559
i'm just um i'm

1815
01:03:30,630 --> 01:03:28,960
i'm looking forward to seeing you on on

1816
01:03:33,270 --> 01:03:30,640
saturday um

1817
01:03:35,109 --> 01:03:33,280
it's a wonderful timing and that um

1818
01:03:38,150 --> 01:03:35,119
you're going to be uh we're going to be

1819
01:03:40,789 --> 01:03:38,160
discussing above top secret by timothy

1820
01:03:42,390 --> 01:03:40,799
good um which was published i believe in

1821
01:03:46,150 --> 01:03:42,400
1988

1822
01:03:49,589 --> 01:03:46,160
um so so there we have a book that's you

1823
01:03:52,390 --> 01:03:49,599
know it's covering some similar terrain

1824
01:03:54,230 --> 01:03:52,400
in a in a large format way but of course

1825
01:03:55,029 --> 01:03:54,240
it's it's with

1826
01:03:57,349 --> 01:03:55,039
um

1827
01:03:59,349 --> 01:03:57,359
much less of the contemporary context

1828
01:04:01,109 --> 01:03:59,359
that that we've got but you know it's

1829
01:04:04,309 --> 01:04:01,119
it's going to be interesting to see how

1830
01:04:05,750 --> 01:04:04,319
that uh above top secret dovetails with

1831
01:04:08,630 --> 01:04:05,760
your new book in terms of the

1832
01:04:11,910 --> 01:04:08,640
conversation then and hopefully if we

1833
01:04:14,230 --> 01:04:11,920
can twist some arms in the uap book club

1834
01:04:16,630 --> 01:04:14,240
maybe we can talk about flying saucer

1835
01:04:18,390 --> 01:04:16,640
fever in an episode to come in the

1836
01:04:20,150 --> 01:04:18,400
months to come would you be opposed to

1837
01:04:21,589 --> 01:04:20,160
that i wouldn't be opposed to it but i

1838
01:04:23,589 --> 01:04:21,599
wouldn't want to be sort of accused of

1839
01:04:27,190 --> 01:04:23,599
any kind of you know special favors so

1840
01:04:33,109 --> 01:04:27,200
uh she's got to get him on the record

1841
01:04:36,309 --> 01:04:34,789
well beautiful this has been absolutely

1842
01:04:38,549 --> 01:04:36,319
amazing it's wonderful to be able to

1843
01:04:40,950 --> 01:04:38,559
talk to you on such an auspicious day

1844
01:04:42,390 --> 01:04:40,960
um you know it's only every so often one

1845
01:04:44,470 --> 01:04:42,400
comes out with a book though it sounds

1846
01:04:46,950 --> 01:04:44,480
like you know there's been a lot of talk

1847
01:04:49,750 --> 01:04:46,960
about foo fighters in this conversation

1848
01:04:52,710 --> 01:04:49,760
today whereas uh mr rindel is he's kind

1849
01:04:54,950 --> 01:04:52,720
of more of a guided by voices guy

1850
01:04:57,109 --> 01:04:54,960
because he's already got this big one in

1851
01:04:57,910 --> 01:04:57,119
the can and he's already on to the next

1852
01:05:04,950 --> 01:04:57,920
one

1853
01:05:07,430 --> 01:05:04,960
see so it's kind of maybe

1854
01:05:09,270 --> 01:05:07,440
as far as maybe bands go it might be

1855
01:05:10,630 --> 01:05:09,280
that might be a more

1856
01:05:12,069 --> 01:05:10,640
close analogy

1857
01:05:14,630 --> 01:05:12,079
since we're putting you down and getting

1858
01:05:16,470 --> 01:05:14,640
you on the record will you let me uh

1859
01:05:18,069 --> 01:05:16,480
co-write a chapter with you on one of

1860
01:05:21,430 --> 01:05:18,079
your upcoming books

1861
01:05:23,270 --> 01:05:21,440
oh i wouldn't yeah that's a yeah

1862
01:05:26,069 --> 01:05:23,280
yeah like i don't think he meant it but

1863
01:05:27,829 --> 01:05:26,079
he did say it on the record no thank you

1864
01:05:29,349 --> 01:05:27,839
i'll tell you what's gonna talk about it

1865
01:05:30,470 --> 01:05:29,359
how about no how about this you write

1866
01:05:31,510 --> 01:05:30,480
the forward

1867
01:05:35,270 --> 01:05:31,520
oh

1868
01:05:36,710 --> 01:05:35,280
beautiful hey all right

1869
01:05:40,789 --> 01:05:36,720
yes you'll have you'll have to

1870
01:05:45,190 --> 01:05:43,109
you're at the forward how about that

1871
01:05:47,029 --> 01:05:45,200
that's the deal wow sweet i gotta do

1872
01:05:48,230 --> 01:05:47,039
this more often get you on the record

1873
01:05:50,470 --> 01:05:48,240
and ask you for

1874
01:05:51,670 --> 01:05:50,480
things like that absolutely hey graham

1875
01:05:53,510 --> 01:05:51,680
why don't you come do a show i got a

1876
01:05:56,549 --> 01:05:53,520
couple questions for you

1877
01:05:58,630 --> 01:05:56,559
can i get 75 of anything you make on

1878
01:06:00,470 --> 01:05:58,640
anything in the future even if it's not

1879
01:06:03,430 --> 01:06:00,480
on the books it's just a regular job

1880
01:06:06,950 --> 01:06:05,349
i i had a great time with you graham

1881
01:06:09,109 --> 01:06:06,960
you're you're a super friend a great

1882
01:06:11,190 --> 01:06:09,119
colleague um i look forward to seeing

1883
01:06:12,950 --> 01:06:11,200
you saturday on uh

1884
01:06:15,750 --> 01:06:12,960
quantum witch cafes channel for the book

1885
01:06:17,349 --> 01:06:15,760
club uh to discuss top secret and if you

1886
01:06:19,029 --> 01:06:17,359
got the uk version i have a very

1887
01:06:20,950 --> 01:06:19,039
interesting question for you

1888
01:06:21,990 --> 01:06:20,960
uh when that comes so people should tune

1889
01:06:24,470 --> 01:06:22,000
in

1890
01:06:27,029 --> 01:06:24,480
um and yeah i had a great time i know

1891
01:06:29,910 --> 01:06:27,039
this is you know um there's many more to

1892
01:06:31,670 --> 01:06:29,920
come and you know i have to unveil our

1893
01:06:33,430 --> 01:06:31,680
little scene of the movie that we

1894
01:06:35,190 --> 01:06:33,440
recorded as well that's right graham

1895
01:06:36,309 --> 01:06:35,200
does some acting so

1896
01:06:38,710 --> 01:06:36,319
um

1897
01:06:40,470 --> 01:06:38,720
that'll be fantastic and so but with

1898
01:06:43,670 --> 01:06:40,480
that being said i really appreciate it

1899
01:06:45,990 --> 01:06:43,680
everybody i put the link to is twitter

1900
01:06:49,510 --> 01:06:46,000
and uh the book that you can read for

1901
01:06:51,750 --> 01:06:49,520
free for for now on kindle so go there

1902
01:06:53,910 --> 01:06:51,760
and check it out but please support him

1903
01:06:55,670 --> 01:06:53,920
and and look at his other works because

1904
01:06:56,710 --> 01:06:55,680
it's fantastic we need authors like him

1905
01:06:58,829 --> 01:06:56,720
around so

1906
01:07:01,670 --> 01:06:58,839
uh with that being

1907
01:07:04,710 --> 01:07:01,680
said thank you thank you so much mr

1908
01:07:06,870 --> 01:07:04,720
randall excellent work peace out

1909
01:07:08,309 --> 01:07:06,880
cheers

1910
01:07:11,270 --> 01:07:08,319
great show friend

1911
01:07:12,789 --> 01:07:11,280
absolutely friend that was

1912
01:07:14,710 --> 01:07:12,799
absolutely wonderful

1913
01:07:16,630 --> 01:07:14,720
i uh i

1914
01:07:19,190 --> 01:07:16,640
i love mr rundle

1915
01:07:21,430 --> 01:07:19,200
he's so great he's a fantastic writer

1916
01:07:23,589 --> 01:07:21,440
and it was wonderful to get that kind of

1917
01:07:24,390 --> 01:07:23,599
sudden homework assignment today

1918
01:07:26,549 --> 01:07:24,400
and

1919
01:07:27,670 --> 01:07:26,559
again kind of like

1920
01:07:29,270 --> 01:07:27,680
that

1921
01:07:31,750 --> 01:07:29,280
chuck any idea for what the show was

1922
01:07:33,349 --> 01:07:31,760
going to be and go with the absolute new

1923
01:07:35,589 --> 01:07:33,359
thing which which is kind of an

1924
01:07:37,270 --> 01:07:35,599
exhilarating way to arrange the day you

1925
01:07:39,670 --> 01:07:37,280
know i feel like that's kind of becoming

1926
01:07:42,470 --> 01:07:39,680
our mo you know

1927
01:07:45,670 --> 01:07:42,480
like the time the timing of what we do

1928
01:07:47,750 --> 01:07:45,680
always just works out so well

1929
01:07:49,589 --> 01:07:47,760
yeah it's it's it seems auspicious it

1930
01:07:52,870 --> 01:07:49,599
almost seems designed but

1931
01:07:55,109 --> 01:07:52,880
um very we um we're nimble we're nimble

1932
01:07:57,430 --> 01:07:55,119
thinkers and we try to adapt and i'm

1933
01:07:59,589 --> 01:07:57,440
just lazy so

1934
01:08:00,950 --> 01:07:59,599
but it works out

1935
01:08:05,029 --> 01:08:00,960
well

1936
01:08:06,470 --> 01:08:05,039
audience goes with it uh thanks to

1937
01:08:08,710 --> 01:08:06,480
everybody in the chat for being so

1938
01:08:10,390 --> 01:08:08,720
wonderful i saw so much wonderful

1939
01:08:12,390 --> 01:08:10,400
dialogue happening over there and so

1940
01:08:16,070 --> 01:08:12,400
many wonderful uh

1941
01:08:19,269 --> 01:08:16,080
people in the chat like jonathan and dan

1942
01:08:21,269 --> 01:08:19,279
and laura and katie howland and and

1943
01:08:23,030 --> 01:08:21,279
vinnie i saw earlier

1944
01:08:26,390 --> 01:08:23,040
so many want julie farrell so many

1945
01:08:28,709 --> 01:08:26,400
wonderful regulars andres i i won't go

1946
01:08:29,910 --> 01:08:28,719
and name everyone but um it's absolutely

1947
01:08:31,829 --> 01:08:29,920
gone

1948
01:08:32,870 --> 01:08:31,839
the the robert

1949
01:08:34,470 --> 01:08:32,880
the the

1950
01:08:37,110 --> 01:08:34,480
amazing community that we have

1951
01:08:39,669 --> 01:08:37,120
developing on the channel and in the

1952
01:08:41,990 --> 01:08:39,679
community in general it's it's wonderful

1953
01:08:43,749 --> 01:08:42,000
um seeing how people can actually get

1954
01:08:45,910 --> 01:08:43,759
together and

1955
01:08:47,910 --> 01:08:45,920
have pleasant conversation thoughtful

1956
01:08:51,189 --> 01:08:47,920
conversation with each other um as

1957
01:08:54,709 --> 01:08:51,199
opposed to you know when we just kind of

1958
01:08:56,950 --> 01:08:54,719
avoid certain areas

1959
01:08:59,189 --> 01:08:56,960
you know little do they know that we you

1960
01:09:00,870 --> 01:08:59,199
know right when we get off the air the

1961
01:09:02,630 --> 01:09:00,880
talking begins

1962
01:09:03,829 --> 01:09:02,640
so

1963
01:09:05,829 --> 01:09:03,839
i'm just kidding

1964
01:09:08,630 --> 01:09:05,839
unless unless sean hasn't eaten for like

1965
01:09:09,590 --> 01:09:08,640
two whole days then yeah you know

1966
01:09:11,910 --> 01:09:09,600
because

1967
01:09:13,510 --> 01:09:11,920
yeah then the hanger takes over but

1968
01:09:14,870 --> 01:09:13,520
we're absolutely okay

1969
01:09:17,430 --> 01:09:14,880
all right friend well

1970
01:09:20,709 --> 01:09:17,440
i love you buddy and uh hopefully we

1971
01:09:22,470 --> 01:09:20,719
will see you very soon

1972
01:09:24,630 --> 01:09:22,480
absolutely well if nothing else i'll see

1973
01:09:26,789 --> 01:09:24,640
you on saturday and then next wednesday

1974
01:09:29,480 --> 01:09:26,799
for sure all right all right peace have

1975
01:09:30,530 --> 01:09:29,490
a good one buddy i'll see you soon bye

1976
01:09:30,660 --> 01:09:30,540
[Music]

1977
01:09:38,519 --> 01:09:30,670
[Laughter]

1978
01:10:04,010 --> 01:09:45,010
[Music]

1979
01:10:04,020 --> 01:10:08,070
[Applause]

1980
01:10:08,080 --> 01:10:13,110
flying object